Amy Vaughan:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to our weekly Power Lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughan and I am the owner and Chief Empowerment Officer Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power and connection. You can join the movement@togetherindigital.com and today we’re diving into a conversation that goes beyond comfortable platitudes and into the real work of inclusive leadership. I am thrilled to welcome Sheryl Deja, founder and CEO of Bridge, a leader who is turning inclusion from a buzzword into a strategic business driver. I had the pleasure of meeting Sheryl at last year’s what was like. It was like I just left my head high. Friday Content Marketing World yes.
Amy Vaughan:
Or she was on stage and spoke and was very, very impressed with the work that you’re doing. And you know, like you said, going. Like I said, going beyond the platitudes is so important. Sheryl’s journey began in a parthed area in South Africa, an experience that profoundly shaped her lifelong commitment to equality and doing the uncomfortable work that real progress demands. Now she is based in what I hope is sunny San Diego because I am in freezing Cincinnati, Ohio, where she is leading Bridge, the independent global trade organization that is transforming how marketing, media and technology industries approach inclusion. Her leadership at Bridge created iMax, the inclusive marketing Advantage Index, the first operating system that enables executives to actually measure the mature and mature inclusion across their business to unlock trust, relevance and competitive advantage. What sets Sheryl apart isn’t just her powerful origin story or her impressive credentials as thought leadership and strategist. It’s her refusal to accept surface level DEI conversations.
Amy Vaughan:
We are here for that. So she is here to talk about operating, operationalizing, inclusion stretching beyond our comfort zones and understanding that true leadership requires clarity, courage and conviction. Welcome to the Power Lounge, Sheryl.
Sheryl Daija:
Thank you so much for having me, Amy. I appreciate it. That was quite the introduction.
Amy Vaughan:
I know, right?
Sheryl Daija:
I hope to be able to live up to it.
Amy Vaughan:
You absolutely will. You absolutely will. So. So your story starts in South Africa. How did that experience shape not just your commitment to equality, as I stated in the. In the intro, but specifically your approach to making inclusion a measurable business strategy rather than a moral imperative.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah, so, yeah, you know, certainly interesting times right now. And the parallels obviously between South Africa are kind of stark and scary.
Amy Vaughan:
Scary.
Sheryl Daija:
But I did grow up under the apartheid regime in South Africa and a very, at a very early age, I kind of recognized what it meant to live at the expense of an entire nation. Obviously, you know, we were. I don’t think privilege quite captures how we lived. And, you know, that spurred my personal commitment to social justice. It was not easy. I was very young. I mean, I was still at school. And it was not easy to be an activist, honestly, in South Africa.
Sheryl Daija:
And people would be kind of. People would disappear. They would make people disappear a lot. And so you had to find ways to make change and to understand really, kind of the complexity of what was going on in that time. I had the privilege of leaving South Africa because I did not want to live under those conditions. And I did not realize when I left what a privilege it was that I was able to leave. Right. Only after doing my own work that I kind of really understand the privilege of being able to leave.
Sheryl Daija:
And I thought I’d come to this country and see something very different. And obviously, it was different. It was not the law of the land. You know, when I arrived, segregation was, you know, kind of over. But there’s, you know, there’s obviously been a lot of, you know, there continues to be a lot of inequity and inequality in this country, and, you know, especially now. So that coupled, I think, with the fact that I am part of a multiracial family and I’ve chosen to see the world through my son’s eyes, has really challenged me to understand the way that we can do this work and be successful at doing the work. And I believe that the way that we can do the work and be successful at doing the work is not grounding it in the moral imperative, it’s grounding it in the business imperative. At the end of the day, companies need to make money.
Sheryl Daija:
They’re focused on growth. I believe inclusion is transformational for that growth. And so that kind of gives us a business grounding to drive inclusion as a way, as a capability and operationalizing it across the business, because the opportunity is huge. And so if we can change the narrative around it, we can kind of get back to the work at hand, I think.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, yeah, I understand what you’re saying exactly. Because we can say so much about the platitudes, and there’s a lot of people who’ve kind of ridden that coattails of, like, performative allyship and things like that. But when you’re talking to business, it’s not that personal endeavor. It’s like, what are the business cases? What are the business needs or objectives? And it feels kind of cold and inhuman. But at the same time, such as business, in a lot of ways, Right, Yeah.
Sheryl Daija:
I mean, listen, I don’t want to. I don’t want to pretend that I don’t believe it’s a moral imperative, because I absolutely do. I just don’t think that the moral imperative always wins. And, you know, in order for it to become a practice within organizations, we have to apply the same rigor to it as we would to any other practice that we do. And so I think that’s our opportunity. An advantage is how we do. You know, at the end of the day, for me, it’s the work that gets done. You know, whether it’s the moral or business side, I don’t really care.
Sheryl Daija:
I just want to make sure that the work gets done because the end result. Right. Is the same thing. So, yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Winning all around in that case. So you’ve said that only real progress happens when we get stretched beyond our comfort. Talking, in a business sense, talking about executives, you know, that can be a little bit of a challenge. So what does that work, that uncomfortable stretch actually look like in practice? And why do so many leaders kind of stop short of it?
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah, you know, I think for me, an uncomfortable stretch is when you change where power and money actually move, not just language. Right. And so certainly, you know, the language of DEI has been attacked. I’ve. I’ve often said you can call a purple butterfly, it doesn’t matter as long as the work gets done. Right. So we have to. We have to really think about how we change where the power and the money move.
Sheryl Daija:
Right. Not just the language. So that’s kind of the first thing. And, you know, when I. When I was looking at the questions, obviously, I was thinking, you know, I wanted to. It was interesting because my work experience, Right. I was. I was the chief strategy officer at the.
Sheryl Daija:
At the mma, which is a mobile marketing association. And I remember so vividly how, you know, consumers had already moved to mobile, but brands kept on investing in what fit their kind of legacy models. Right. What was in their marketing mix models. It felt safer. No one got fired, right, for sticking with what they knew. And so it was, you know, even though it was incredibly frustrating for us because we were like, all of your consumers are over here. Why are you spending money over there? It took research and ROI and advertising effectiveness studies and all of those things that kind of was applying the rigor to that moment into that business.
Sheryl Daija:
It wasn’t enough that the consumers were where they were. And so I think that fundamentally, CEOs and brands are kind of tried and true. And so we have to figure out, how do we break through with that same kind of rigor. Right. The thing that I will say, in the same way that consumers were all on mobile devices, I mean, we know despite the attempts or despite the wish that this wasn’t the case, the demographics are shifting, markets are shifting. And I do think that it’s going to be really important for companies to understand and start internalizing that because they will fade into irrelevance if they don’t. I mean, I think that’s the cautionary, you know, cautionary tale. Right.
Sheryl Daija:
So, it’s really about how you can start to think about, you know, readying your, your organization to, to be ready for what the future is going to hold. Despite what the politics say, despite everything else, there’s just a reality. You know, we know that. Right. I mean, we see that Gen Z is the most multiracial. I mean, I don’t have to tell you. Right. Most multiracial generations of our time, et cetera, et cetera.
Sheryl Daija:
That is a reality. So, you know.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, yeah. And there’s just a lot to like about the organization, like, there’s a lot to do with organizational change and change in general that like, definitely stop people in their tracks when it’s like, you’ll hear we’ve always done it this way. And when you ask to move money or change systems, it feels big and it feels scary. And so that definitely can get you stuck. But I think, like, you’re saying the data is truly what’s going to help get them out of that rut and maybe that analysis paralysis or fear of making actionable change. And I think, I think as consumers too, it’s been really interesting to see how we are trying to choose differently and how and where and when we spend our money. So that drives it even further. It’s not enough for you to just like, post something about Facebook and bitch about it.
Amy Vaughan:
You need to actually, like, put, put your money where your mouth is too. And then that will signal to the higher ups that, you know, there’s got to be some changes there as well. Have you kind of seen that in, like, any particular cases where that’s been effective? I mean, I know sometimes we do. Like today is supposed to be a blackout day. You know, we were just talking about that before we hopped on here, our movements like this actually moving the needle and, and getting recognition at the top.
Sheryl Daija:
I mean, I do think so, right. We’ve seen that, you know, companies that had this, you know, kind of extreme overcorrection at the beginning of this new kind of administration, that their bottom line has been significantly impacted. Right. I mean, CEOs are in a difficult position right now, but I genuinely believe that if you know, you know what your values are and you abide by those values and you execute against those values and you are consistent with what your internal values are, with your external communications, then you’re kind of in a pretty good spot to continue to do this work and move things forward. Power does not sit only at the top. Power sits with each and every one of us. I do think that we are at the beginning of seeing the impact of that power on the economy and on specific ways that people are choosing to spend their money. I do think that it’s actually kind of, maybe even at this inflection point, right.
Sheryl Daija:
Of, you know, if you, if you listen to, I don’t know if you listen to Scott Galloway, but if you listen to, you know, the way Scott talks, this is the inflection point of when that is going to drive, I think, pretty significant change. Yeah, I hope so.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, I agree. Awesome. Well, let’s talk a little bit about IMAX and bringing it back to, like, the work that’s being done internally, the Inclusive Marketing Advantage Index for our members who are, you know, have tried, maybe, or tired of, like, inclusion being treated as this nice to have thing. How does IMAX fundamentally change the conversation in the C suite? Because there’s a lot of frameworks out there, there’s a lot of ways to come at this. How is this different?
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah, so, you know, I have a marketing background, so for me, the thing that, you know, as we were kind of thinking about what is our mission, which is really about how do you operationalize inclusion as a business practice? You know, we’ve kind of, we’ve brought in the learnings, as I said, we need to apply the same rigor to inclusion as we do for everything else that we’re doing. And so we brought in a lot of the learnings from our business experience into imax. And, you know, you kind of, you treasure what you measure. We have a board member, Yin, who always says that. Right. And it’s actually not that you measure what you treasure. You really should treasure what you kind of can measure. Right.
Sheryl Daija:
And so the biggest opportunity is how do we actually turn inclusion into a metric, into a brand metric, and into something that is measurable. And so what we wanted to do with imax and we actually collaborated with an Academy team from a professor of marketing from Emory University, University of Georgia and Indiana University, was to understand what are the practices that contribute to building more equity and inclusion in the marketplace. Right. We’ve obviously had a lot of focus in the workplace when it comes to DEI efforts or inclusion efforts. And we really wanted to say, okay, you know, the workplace is foundational to marketplace impact. What are those practices within the marketplace that can drive growth? How do we turn inclusion into a growth driver and how do we actually start to measure it? So IMAX is actually part of a broader system for inclusive growth that we have been talking about because we want to bring consistent language and process and approach to this work and kind of take away the philosophical conversation, but really grounded in what we believe is transformational for growth. And there are actually four components. I’m not going to spend a lot of time, but just to give you maybe the, you know, kind of high-level understanding of what we think about when we think about inclusive growth.
Sheryl Daija:
One is how do you mitigate risk in this time? We obviously have to think about that. I wish it wasn’t part of the work that we’re doing, but it is. The second is how do you unlock growth? And that’s really about imax. The third is how do you then build the capability within your organization and make inclusion an enterprise wide capability. And then the fourth, which is more of an internal thing for us, is how do we start to foster industry alignment? So you know, where we are right now is that companies are really under significant pressure, right. To grow in a market that’s very fragmented. It’s also skeptical and people are watching really closely. Right.
Sheryl Daija:
So you have, you have consumers that are, that are kind of more complicated and more diverse. You’ve got investors that are more discerning and you’ve got regulators that are more active. So every decision from the culture you build to how your brand shows up really does signal what your company stands for. Right. And so IMAX is a framework of 150 plus business practices across the organization that really helps leaders, CEOs, CFOs, CMOs, inclusion leaders, culture leaders, to turn inclusion into a competitive advantage by building inclusion as a capability. And so that’s really what our focus has been. And it’s both a framework and it’s also a maturity model. Marketers are very used to maturity models.
Sheryl Daija:
So we figured if we can start to figure out how to give and equip individuals and companies with the way to actually measure your inclusion maturity and tie that maturity to business outcomes, then you can understand what are the practices that are going to contribute to building your brand equity, strengthening performance and ultimately reducing risk at this moment. So, you know, we’re pretty excited about imax. We’re starting to roll it out now, but it really is the first time that you can start to measure inclusion as a, as a brand metric, you know, if you will.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s really smart. I love it.
Sheryl Daija:
Thank you.
Amy Vaughan:
So a lot of our members are navigating companies and organizations where DEI initiatives feel either performative or pretty much just stalled out. What is the difference between companies that successfully operationalize includes in using things like your IMAX framework, versus those who kind of are stuck in surface level conversation still, or again, have just chosen to go silent on it, which feels like a lot of folks.
Sheryl Daija:
So, you know, I will say that there are a lot of companies that have chosen to go silent but not stop the work. So which, you know, for me, again, I wish they were loud and proud about doing the work, but doing the work is more important. And so, you know, trying to stand on the radar, trying to do the right thing, continuing to do the right thing so that they can focus on their business without attacks is understandable right now. And so I do think that more, I do think there are more companies that are actually doing the work versus having completely, you know, walked away from it. How they’re doing it, I think is really, you know, kind of the question. Right. So for me, the difference is growth. Companies that move beyond performative inclusion and really integrate it into how they build their brand, how they build their products, their customer relationships that drive performance will kind of bring longevity to the practice of inclusion and make it authentic, right? And also sustainable.
Sheryl Daija:
I mean, if you look at companies like ELF Beauty or Sephora, right, they’re experiencing double digit growth as a result of their inclusion efforts. Not because they’re doing performative inclusion, but because their inclusion, their inclusion efforts are integrated or integrated. And they’re both intentional and authentic. Right. And you know, I love actually when I, when I kind of talk about this always, it always kind of reminds me of one of our CMOs who are on the board, Joy Allen. Altamira and Altamira. And she says that, well, she said at our Bridge 25 retreat last year, she said you need to build, you need to build with culture, not full culture. And I think, I mean, it’s obvious, right? But the nuance is incredibly powerful and game changing, I think for companies when you really understand what that means.
Sheryl Daija:
So, you know, that allows us to kind of move away from. Well, we need diverse slates. And not that we don’t, we need diverse Slates of, you know, of, you know, we hire or we need to get to percentages. Start to think about how you develop, you know, with culture, not full culture. And that means that you have to have that culture internally integrated into your organization. Right. And that means that you need to have diversity on your teams. But not because we, you know, think that it’s a good moral imperative, but because it’s just smart business.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah, right. I mean, it’s just smart business. If you’re going after a community, make sure that your, your teams represent the community that you’re going to, that you’re looking to serve. Because they know that community better than you do if you’re not part of it. Right. So. So I do think that, you know, the big difference is growth and an understanding of what it means to build with culture, not full culture. And what does that mean? And that is really kind of, you know, I feel like I repeat myself a lot.
Sheryl Daija:
But that’s why we believe that, you know, you need to operationalize inclusion. When I talk to companies right now, my message to them is in order to actually reduce your vulnerabilities, do more, don’t do less. You know what I mean? Because if it’s part of your business and it’s totally, you know, integrated, you know, people can’t find it. Right. If they’re looking for it because it’s fundamental to your business growth. And by the way, you know, I mean, I would imagine that growth is the most important thing. So figure out how you can tie that inclusion to business outcomes.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. And it’s such a subtle but brilliant mindset shift. You’re right. The for culture versus with culture. For maintaining relevance for finding community. Which is all things that brands have wanted to do, but it’s always felt like it’s been force feeding. Right. Because they’re doing it for versus with.
Amy Vaughan:
And yeah, there’s even from a marketing standpoint that is so smart. Obviously spoken well by a cmo.
Sheryl Daija:
I know exactly who you know, I love Joy. But, but it really, you know, it. The nuance is just so incredibly simple, yet very, very powerful. So yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Amy Vaughan:
So you work across marketing, media and technology industries that often claim to value diversity but struggle with that meaningful change. What patterns have you observed that keep these industries moving beyond intentions and actual to actual outcomes? I think this kind of dovetails nicely off of what we were just talking about. But any other builds that you have?
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think, I mean it’s great to have good intentions. Right. And I do think that a lot of companies, certainly after the murder of George Floyd, their intentions were in the right place. But good intentions don’t always drive successful implementation. Right. And unfortunately, most times, as we saw and have seen, they end up with performative activities that are not sustainable or scalable. Right. And so do you.
Sheryl Daija:
To really do inclusion work well and to tap into the opportunity, by the way, for growth, it’s going to require a behavioral change. Right. I mean. Right. All the most successful things ultimately require you to change some form of behavior. Right. And I think a recognition that inclusion is a competitive advantage for long term growth. And you know, back to what we were saying, not just a moral imperative.
Sheryl Daija:
Right. So there has to be that, that, that realization and that awareness and that consciousness that is brought to inclusion. And there has to be that change in behavior. It’s not about politics, it’s not about what you believe, it’s not about policy, it’s about where the opportunity is and understanding that inclusion can be a huge competitive advantage. And then how do you change, how do you prepare your organization for that change in behavior so you can start to embed inclusion in your product development. Right. I mean, there are so many, I think there are so many gaps, right. From a product development perspective.
Sheryl Daija:
And we’ve seen when inclusion is embedded in product development and you see yourself in the brand. Right. How that just builds incredible, you know, brand equity and loyalty. And I won’t get into it, but we actually did some research last year about the impact of inclusion on purchase intent and it was on par with pricing strategies. So it was a, it was a 3x impact and it was literally on par with pricing strategies and kind of yet like feature benefit strategies. So it, you know, when you start to kind of, I think that’s part of what’s been missing in the industry and that’s our, you know, kind of responsibility is to show the impact that it has on purchase intent, to show the impact that it has on engagement. And you know, those are the, those are the, maybe the, the rigor that has been missing in this work. And obviously, you know, we hope to bring it.
Sheryl Daija:
But you know, you have to move beyond good intentions. Right? You have to change behavior.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, it’s these little baby steps, but it’s like all significant, meaningful steps too. So I think I’m honestly excited about it. I’m happy to be out of the performative era of DEI for all the changes in administration and how it all feels. It just kind of felt like it was like a sinking ship. I actually think it’s a little bit more of a dark horse. You know, I think it’s got its chance to come back, and I think it’s going to be grounded in a lot of the work that you’re doing.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah. You know, Amy, I think you make such a good point, and it’s something that I have said before, which is every just, you know, let’s just set aside the politics for the moment because it kind of doesn’t matter. Every single practice always evolves. I mean, when you talk to marketers all the time as CMOs, how many times do they reorg in a year, right? I mean, they can go through three or four reorgs in one year. It is an evolution. You figure out what works and what doesn’t, and then you, you know, you double down and you prioritize what’s working and you change what isn’t. I think that despite the politics, DEI practices, inclusion practices, again, whatever you want to call them, was at the point where they would have organically started to evolve anyway. And just by the way, we’re not saying anything that most DEI leaders haven’t said in their organizations, and I would say skilled DEI leaders haven’t been saying that it’s attached to performance and it’s attached to business outcomes.
Sheryl Daija:
I think that there was not necessarily that behavior changed. So everyone kind of was so stuck on the fact that there was this moral imperative and we needed to get X percentage of people and, you know, the focus was there. The skilled DI leaders, though, were always, you know, have always known that this is about potential, potential growth. We just now have the opportunity to drive that message home in a stronger way. And I think CEOs that are open to hearing it are going to be the ones that are most successful in the future.
Amy Vaughan:
So, yeah, so I’m going to jump on one of my soapboxes here for just a second. I don’t know how much is happening anymore, but a lot of our members, myself included, have often been asked to lead inclusion efforts on top of their regular roles within companies. And this is where I get a little chapped, because it’s like we didn’t create the problem, but you’re going to assign us to do more work for free to address and fix the problem that wasn’t our creation. So how do you advise professionals who maybe aren’t at the table, at least leadership who want to drive some meaningful change, do so without becoming basically unpaid DEI labor? Because that’s a real thing. And it makes me.
Sheryl Daija:
It is a real thing. And, you know, it’s. It’s. It’s the same as.
Amy Vaughan:
Right.
Sheryl Daija:
Like, racism is not. Is not a black issue. Right, Right. It’s not black people to fix. It’s for. It’s for white people to fix. And, you know, it’s kind of the same thing. Right.
Sheryl Daija:
And I think what we saw after the burnout of George Floyd was, you know, okay, well, you’re a woman or you’re a person of color and you’re doing marketing, why don’t you just start to, you know, die? And it kind of misses the point. Right? You don’t. DEI are very skilled professionals that come at the work with a very, you know, nuanced lens to the world. And, you know, being a woman or a person of color certainly makes you more conscious and aware of, but it doesn’t make you a ti leader. Right. So I hear you, and I do think that has been certainly a challenge. Right. That being said, I would say that inclusion is everyone’s responsibility, and it’s actually not the role of women or people of color or even the DI leaders, again, whatever their titles might be at this moment, they certainly can create the strategy and they can create the understanding and the education around the opportunity.
Sheryl Daija:
But at the very least. At the, at the. At the bottom line is that to do it successfully, it needs to be intentionally, again, as we’ve said, embedded as core to your role, whatever your role is. Everyone should be asking, how do I use inclusion as a lever to drive growth, to create new markets, and to increase loyalty. The conversation should not be about whose job it is. It should be about how we tap into this as a huge opportunity and as a lever for growth. And so I think that the way that we solve this is by saying, you know, again, is by, like, not thinking of it as outside of our jobs, but rather as integral to them. Right.
Sheryl Daija:
And whether you’re a CEO or cfo, a cmo, if you’re in marketing, if you’re in, you know, if you’re in research and insights, if you’re in product development, if you’re in AI, specifically right now, I mean, you know, we should really be talking about how do you put inclusion at the center of your AI, you know, models and development, Everyone should be asking that same question, because that’s how, you know, you kind of figure out how do you use it to drive growth. And so we’re not there yet, but that’s the hope. And I do think that that’s how you, you know, you change the mindset from it being your job to being everyone’s job.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, 100%, I absolutely love that answer. So the answer, ladies, is no. We just need systems, and inclusion is everyone’s job.
Sheryl Daija:
Exactly. Yeah. You know, you obviously. And again, it’s like, okay, but then, you know, I’m happy to do it, but it’s going to be integral to my job and therefore need resources, budget, et cetera, so that we can be successful at executing against it, you know, as. As a driver of growth. Not because it feels good. Right.
Amy Vaughan:
I mean, I’m just gonna vent for a second because I feel like our listeners could relate. Is that, like, we. I was a creative director working 60 hours a week with two small children at home, and I had such a passion for this. Obviously, I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing now if I didn’t. And, you know, they were like, we need a logo for the group, and it needs to be well designed, and we need to get reviews and approvals scheduled. They were making such a big deal of all of this stuff. And I was like, why does any of that actually matter? What matters are the conversations, the concerns that are being brought up in the space that we’re creating, like, not how pretty the logo is and what the mission vision is and where are the objectives, where are the goals, you know?
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah, well, you know, I mean, I think that, you know, when. When structure doesn’t exist, it’s hot. You know, you kind of try to find your center, and you do it on the things that are familiar to you. Right. So that’s kind of like, okay, standard operating procedure. Let’s have a mission and vision. Let’s have a logo. Right.
Sheryl Daija:
And so you kind of get stuck on the familiar as opposed to, you know, challenging what doesn’t exist.
Amy Vaughan:
So deeper work. Absolutely. I mean, they spent months on that. I was like, are we going to have a meeting? Are we going to kick this off, like, any day now?
Sheryl Daija:
I’m sure. I’m sure. I’m sure the color was really important, too.
Amy Vaughan:
I honestly don’t even remember what it looked like. I blocked it out. But I do remember the conversations, and I do remember the opportunities that it had helped because I didn’t even stay. But, like, the CFO was greatly impressed by the work that we did, the data that we brought, the conversations that we had and held, and they ended up working too. He made it his goal to, you know, reach pay equity for the whole company within two years. And he did it.
Sheryl Daija:
Amazing.
Amy Vaughan:
A foundation that would actually help folks that maybe couldn’t get into the industry as easily get scholarships out of high school to go to college to study these things. And I mean, just a lot of really great stuff. So it’s not all in vain, folks. Don’t worry.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah, you know, it’s just. Often I’ll be on my soapbox for a second, but often I wonder, what are we really arguing about? This is not that hard. Right? It’s just not that hard. Everyone deserves equity. Everyone, you know, I mean, it’s just not that hard. And by the way, it’s just good for business when you’re, you know, you’ve got $7 trillion of buying power from underrepresented communities. What are we arguing about? Do you want part of it or don’t you? Because if you do, then do it, you know, then there’s lots of opportunities to get this right and, and to tap into that buying power. Right? So what are we really arguing about? There’s money to be spent.
Sheryl Daija:
If you want the money, if you want that money, let’s talk about how you get it.
Amy Vaughan:
I will just answer the question and then ask you because it goes really nicely into our next question. To me, I think it’s fear and potential loss of power, like perceived loss of power. So, like, when you’re talking about, you know, all these things, how well documented inclusion works, that there are people who will still persist to resist and what’s really holding leadership back? Has anybody actually gotten open and vulnerable with you about what those barriers truly are for them or the rest of the organization that are holding them back?
Sheryl Daija:
I don’t know. I mean, you know, listen, inclusion is not a zero sum game, right? I mean, it’s just again, as you have to really believe and change your behavior. And I would hope, you know, if you’re a CEO, that you, you recognize that you cannot lead out of fear. I mean, certainly we’re seeing a lot of that now. It’s not getting us anywhere. Right? You have to have courage, you have to have conviction, you have to have clarity, and you have to make decisions based on what’s best for your brand and the communities that you serve. Right? So, yeah, I, I don’t, I don’t know. I, you know, it’s a, It’s a lot of excuses, not a lot of substance as to why you wouldn’t kind of do it.
Sheryl Daija:
Right. Inclusion has always been about everyone, right?
Amy Vaughan:
So that includes you guys. That includes everybody.
Sheryl Daija:
Right? There’s a lot of mis. You know, there’s a lot of misconceptions out there, you know, which hopefully we can try to, you know, take that narrative back. But, you know, listen, I think that, you know, thinking about, like, kind of what you said and maybe what your next question is or what your question is in terms of what’s holding leadership back and, you know, and if I always like to say, okay, you know, we can blame everyone else, but what can we do differently? Right? So how do we take responsibility to try and help, not have them hold back, or how do we help them break those barriers?
Amy Vaughan:
Right?
Sheryl Daija:
And so I tend to believe that leaders don’t necessarily need more belief, Right. When you talk to them, they. They’re like, yeah, we do. We know, we believe. We’re just not sure, you know, so. So we’ve come at it from the, okay, well, listen, we’re going to give some more infrastructure to this, right? And we are going to help you kind of move away from the inertia and from the fear and from the fact that maybe there has been an absence of a clear roadmap, right? But at the end of the day, we’re going to provide you with that infrastructure. Right? And that’s why we created the System for Inclusive Growth. That’s why we created imax, because we kind of, you know, we’re giving solutions to what we’ve heard as, you know, what the barriers are.
Sheryl Daija:
Right? But I think ultimately what. What leaders need to understand, and that’s every leader that, you know, is listening, not listening. Maybe your listeners can take it. You know, today’s leader is that I believe, genuinely believe that to break the barriers, we need to move inclusion out of the margins into the mechanics of the business. And when we do that, and we embed it into performance and governance and growth and, you know, all of these opportunities, we start to have a very different conversation. We can, you know, we can move past this fear, which I, you know, is hard to understand. Maybe it’s even just lack of courage at this moment in time because there are just, you know, they’re just huge opportunities. And so let’s.
Sheryl Daija:
Let’s focus on the performance. Let’s focus on growth. We don’t even have to have other conversations about it.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. All right, so you have built a bridge. It’s an independent global organization. Why wasn’t independence or why was independence critical to your mission? And how does it enable you to push the kind of change that you. That might make some industry players uncomfortable?
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah, you know, I mean, it’s a It’s a. It’s a complicated thing because we’re an industry trade organization, so we, you know, whereas independent, obviously, we’re independent, but we also serve the global industry, the global marketing industry. And so we come to work, obviously, with a responsibility to ensure that, you know, we understand the challenges and we. And we see clearly all of the things that are happening. But I do think what it does allow us to do is have a voice in places where employees of organizations might not have that same voice. Right. They might have marketing communications guidelines that they, you know, that they have to abide by and respect. They might have moments that are just too complicated to unravel.
Sheryl Daija:
And so I think that as a kind of industry group and as a voice for this work, and certainly as a voice for leaders that are doing this work, it allows us to have some of the more difficult conversations that you might not be able to have if you’re internal to an. To a company. So.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Awesome.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
All right. For leaders who generally want to mature their inclusion practices but don’t even know where to start beyond the traditional training, what’s the first operational shift that they could make?
Sheryl Daija:
I feel like I’m going to repeat myself.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s okay. We got to reinforce it, make sure they hurt.
Sheryl Daija:
I really do. I feel like I’m going to repeat myself. But I would say stop thinking of inclusion as a philosophy or even as optional and start thinking about it as a competitive capability for growth. Like, you have to start. Right. If you really are genuinely interested in inclusion, you’ve got to change your behavior. You’ve got to change how you’re thinking about it, and don’t get caught up in it. In the philosophy or the politics of it and really start thinking about it as a competitive capability.
Amy Vaughan:
And that can be such a distraction. You’re so right. Because it strips away all the BS and all of the drama and all of the polarization and just brings back what it’s supposed to be about. Yeah, I love that.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Again, it bears repeating. So don’t even worry about it. We’ll keep saying it until they hear it and do it.
Sheryl Daija:
I feel like I’m, you know, kind of beating a drum, but. But it, as you say it, bears repeating because it is the thing. It’s just such a huge opportunity. I just wish, you know, I wish I could talk to every CEO of every Fortune 500 company and just say to them, you’re thinking about this wrong. Just a huge opportunity. And, you know, let’s just give it a shot, Right. Just think about it differently.
Amy Vaughan:
We need to find a way to go the marketer route and just give them a little fomo.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah, exactly.
Amy Vaughan:
Find a way to create some inclusion fomo. All right, my last question before we move on to the power round is looking at marketing, media and tech industries today. What gives you hope and what keeps you up at night about where we’re headed with inclusion?
Sheryl Daija:
This is a really difficult question because I am actually an eternal optimist, but I have struggled to see hope in the lack of courageous leadership that we’re seeing. So I’m going to choose to focus on the opportunity to change the conversation and not necessarily focus on whether or not there’s hope or, you know, or no hope. Because I believe that there’s enough people out there that believe in this and that we can, you know, again, I’m an eternal optimist that we can change the conversation and that this, you know, this too, shall pass. I think also, you know, what keeps me up at night probably is more than what, you know, is a bigger focus for me than obviously what gives me hope. Because what keeps me up at night spurs our work, right? And it allows us to keep, you know, thinking and iterating and making sure that we’ve got the right, you know, the right answers. But I would say. I would say a few things. Number one is, you know, how do we help leaders understand that a commitment to values is a good thing, right? It’s just, it’s just a good thing, right? It’s just, it’s good business, it’s good for your employees, it’s good for your consumers.
Sheryl Daija:
Doesn’t, you know, it’s just a good thing, right? Like, you need to really internalize who you are and your values because that allows you to, in the hard and difficult moments, which we are surely in, it allows you to communicate and it allows you to stand by, you know, who you are and who you believe and what you believe in, despite. Right. What might kind of come out from it, right. In the long term, it’s going to be the thing that really grounds companies. So. So I, you know, I kind of think about how we can help them. I think that the thing is, how do we kind of move companies away from this naivete that inclusion is optional and that there aren’t consequences without it because. Because they are.
Sheryl Daija:
And we’ve seen what those consequences are. And so start to think about how you do it, how you do it, right. As opposed to kind of walking away from it, right? So those are the kinds of things. The other piece, I was thinking a lot, and I’ve been thinking a lot about this is the. And this really does keep me up at night is this, you know, just incredible urgency and like, almost, you know, kind of insane urge to rush to build AI models without confronting the systemic biases that exist. And I believe that we are significantly underestimating the reputational risk of doing this. I think that there is a huge potential risk to. To build reputation for brands by rushing and, you know, kind of using AI too.
Sheryl Daija:
To do, you know, just about everything, right? Whether it’s. Whether it’s. Whether it’s hiring, whether it is doing, you know, creating ads. I mean, we know that, like, human error, right, has allowed some pretty egregious mistakes from a marketing perspective. We’ve seen a lot of them. So now we’re kind of relying on a model that we know intrinsically, has intrinsic systemic biases to make those decisions for us. And I genuinely, genuinely believe that we are rushing to. That we are rushing without being intentional and conscious and aware of the potential reputational risks that are, I think, inevitable if we continue to do that.
Sheryl Daija:
So I know that we are kind of thinking about how we even start, maybe an inclusive AI development committee. I hear too much about what AI can do for companies and not enough about how we’re going to build those models. And so I think we should all be very afraid that we’re rushing into building these models. And I would say that we should pause and understand it and really think about it more pragmatically. There’s not, there’s not an urgency, right. Like we’re creating, you know, kind of a. Our own timeline on this. There’s, you know, yes, there is a huge opportunity in AI.
Sheryl Daija:
It’s transformational. But we’ve seen specifically, right. In the media and marketing industry, when we have built structure too fast, the problems that it has created afterwards. And so we, you know, we, we really have an opportunity to kind of go, okay, breathe, pause, let’s think about it.
Amy Vaughan:
Agreed. I hear you.
Sheryl Daija:
I don’t know if that answered your question, but it did.
Amy Vaughan:
It was wonderful. Thank you. And I feel you on both of those fronts. All right, we’ve got our power round questions. If anybody from the live listening audience wants to jump into the chat and leave a question, you absolutely can. If not, we’ll go through these and then we’ll. We’ll get you all back to the rest of your day. What is the most uncomfortable conversation you’ve had that led to a big break?
Amy Vaughan:
Big breakthrough.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah. You know, so I was, I was thinking a lot about that. Right. I mean, it’s a great question, by the way, and I appreciated the question. And so, I was thinking a lot about that. And so I’m going to share, I’m going to share a story. And I would say that it, not, it’s not necessarily maybe the kind of traditional conversation, sense of conversation, but it’s still communication. So I kind of figured that I had a little leeway in how I answered this.
Sheryl Daija:
But I will say that it was a month after we launched Bridge. So we launched Bridge in April of 2022, and it was in May of 2022. And I’m not sure if your listeners will remember this or if you will. And I, and I’m not picking on the brand, I’m just sharing a story. But it was when Walmart launched their Juneteenth ice cream. Okay, so Walmart launched a Juneteenth ice cream. You know, again, good intentions, right? To, to honor Juneteenth. Obviously, you know, not good, not great execution.
Sheryl Daija:
But, you know, it was a real kind of David and Goliath moment for us because we decided to write an open letter to Walmart. And as with everything that we do, we come at this from, how can we help you? Right. We’re not looking to name and shame. This is hard work. Right. People are going to make mistakes, but we are looking to help. Right? And so these are the things. So, you know, we wrote an open letter in and, and the approach was, you know, here’s how we can help you kind of rethink this type of, you know, activity.
Sheryl Daija:
Because if you, if you think about it again, I’m not, you know, I’m not picking on Walmart, but I think it’s such a huge opportunity for learning because if you think about how many people that product, from product development all the way to the fact that it ended up on the shelves.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Sheryl Daija:
How many people saw that? Right? That’s an infrastructure challenge. Challenge. Right. It’s not a bad intentions challenge. It’s a fact that there is an infrastructure. There’s a gap. Right? There’s a gap somewhere. Right? So we wrote, we wrote this, this open letter.
Sheryl Daija:
It got picked up by the Associated Press. I think we ended up getting like a billion impressions, by the way. We’ve never got that since then.
Amy Vaughan:
Any other, Come on, give us more ice cream.
Sheryl Daija:
But we like, literally we got like this, you know, a billion impressions. It really kind of opened up the opportunity for us to have these kinds of conversations. We did not anticipate it. Walmart ultimately did take the ice cream off their shelves. We don’t take credit for that because there was incredible activity on social media that really, you know, I think, spurred that action. Hopefully we get a, you know, maybe we get a tiny little bit of credit. Um, but at the end of the day, what it did was it allowed us to kind of be courageous in those moments, you know, could we have done it behind the scenes? Absolutely. We have now made some decisions.
Sheryl Daija:
When things like this happen, we actually do reach out. We’ve helped a lot of brands now behind the scenes when things happen, because that’s what, that’s who we want to be. We want to be an organization that is ready to help when, you know, because we know mistakes are going to be made. Right.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. And putting them on blast won’t earn that trust right away.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. So, you know, so I apologize to Walmart that we did the open letter and we didn’t kind of come to you behind the scenes, but it was kind of a breakthrough. We learned a lot also because, you know, we, we, we, we were very excited about our opportunity to do this, but we also didn’t take into account the fact that some of our members worked with Walmart. Right. So it’s not, it’s not that they disagreed necessarily with the position, but probably we should have done a better job at just giving them a heads up, you know, so we, you know, so we learn from our own, you know, that’s right. Conversation. And that’s how we grow and that’s how we, you know, we’ve kind of matured ourselves.
Sheryl Daija:
Right. We were one month old doing this kind of crazy, as I said, you know, David and Goliath moment. But it did, it was important for I think everyone. Right. Because it was, it was a teaching moment, a learning moment. It was a time when we could have those conversations. And I just wish we could, like, have those conversations now. Right, so.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, agreed. I love it. All right, finish this sentence. Real inclusion feels like intentionally valuing all.
Sheryl Daija:
People for their differences.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. It’s a great answer.
Sheryl Daija:
And I would put all in capital, like all. I love it.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. We’ll do that on the subtitles. All.
Sheryl Daija:
All caps, all caps, all people.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Sheryl Daija:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
What is one leadership myth about diversity and inclusion that needs to die, that.
Sheryl Daija:
It’s not mutually exclusive from meritocracy?
Amy Vaughan:
Oh, yeah. Dig it. Take it. Oh, this has been so fantastic, Sheryl, thank you so much. You’ve brought a lot of clarity, courage, and candor to the conversation. I love your commitment to moving beyond the comfortable conversations and showing real, measurable, actual change. And inclusion can actually be what moves the needle for not just consumers, but also the industry needs and business needs. So for everyone listening, I encourage you to connect with Sheryl on LinkedIn and learn more about Bridge and the IMAX Index.
Amy Vaughan:
This is the kind of work that transforms not just organizations, but entire industries. What were you going to say, Sheryl?
Sheryl Daija:
No, I said, please, everyone should connect. And I’m just, you know, I’m very kind of grateful for the opportunity to talk about this work. As you can see, I get a little animated about it, but I’m really passionate and I just genuinely believe in what we’re doing.
Amy Vaughan:
So.
Sheryl Daija:
So I just. I appreciate the opportunity to. To be able to talk about it.
Amy Vaughan:
You need it. You need optimism, you need passion, because it’s not easy work.
Sheryl Daija:
So we’re not going. We’re not going away, and we’re going to continue to. To drive against this, in the best possible way. You know, supporting companies, bringing solutions and doing it so that, like, you know, as I say, we can respect everyone for their differences.
Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely. Yep. And to our listeners in our digital community, if today’s conversation resonated with you, remember we’re here to support your growth and leadership. Whether you’re working to drive inclusion in your organization or just stretch beyond your own comfort zone, you’re not alone in the work that you’re doing. You have a tremendous community of women right behind you. You can find them on slack, you can find them at our events. And if you’re not a member yet, we encourage you to check us out and find that community so that you could start to leverage the knowledge, power and connections of this wonderful collaborative of women who really just choose to show up for themselves and for one another. And, you know, we get to have great conversations like this in the power lounge, but we also have master classes, peer groups, and professional development opportunities.
Amy Vaughan:
Sheryl, thank you again. It’s been such a pleasure talking with you. I really appreciate you. As soon as I saw you talking on stage, I was like, we have to have her in the power lounge. So here we are.
Sheryl Daija:
Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
So happy to have you here with us and being able to introduce you to the community for those who couldn’t attend.
Sheryl Daija:
So, yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Amy Vaughan:
My pleasure. All right, everyone, that’s all we’ve got for you today. We hope to see you again soon. Until next time. Keep asking, keep giving and keep growing. We’ll see you soon.
