Amy Vaughan:
Hello everyone and welcome to your weekly power Lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughan and I am the owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power and connections. You can join the movement at togetherindigital.com Today’s conversation couldn’t come at a better time. In a world where burnout badges are worn like honors and calendar chaos is inevitable, we are asking a radical question. What is? If doing less is actually the answer, why does that feel scary? Friends, I think we’re all in the right place. If that’s how it feels. I’m thrilled to welcome Dana Zellers.
Amy Vaughan:
She is an executive coach and facilitator who has spent over 20 years in the corporate and agency roles learning what so many of us are just beginning to understand, that more hours is the enemy of more impact. As an ICP or IPEC and ICF certified coach, Dana has made it her mission to help women reclaim their time and energy by working smarter and not longer. Yes, I know we’re all feeling guilty. Dana challenges the hustle culture that keeps us trapped in a cycle of busyness. And today we are here to share practical strategies for creating your own success systems, one built on clarity, control and confident decision making rather than an endless to-do list. So whether you are drowning in meetings, struggling to find time for strategic work, or simply exhausted from the expectation of doing it all, you are in the right room, my friends. You have the right. You’re tuned into the right station.
Amy Vaughan:
This conversation is for you. Welcome, Dana. We are thrilled to have you here with us today.
Dana Zellers:
Thank you so much for having me. I know this is such an important conversation and I’m so glad to be having it.
Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely. Yeah. It’s definitely not a new conversation for us here at Together Digital with all of us very overly ambitious, hardworking women. But at the same time, it’s one of the things that, I don’t know, we can’t talk about enough because it’s conditioning that we are trying to break. We’ve all been conditioned to believe that somehow busy equals success. What was your personal wake up call that made you realize what was actually holding you back?
Dana Zellers:
Yeah, no, it’s so interesting. I spent many years being that person who was the last person in the office who was stepping in for things that I felt truly needed to be done and raising my hand when other people were not there. And what happened was it created a certain amount of success. And so that sort of feeds on it, that that’s the kind of person that you need to be. That to-do list is never going to be done. There are always more things to do. And. And yet I spent all my downtime recovering from work.
Dana Zellers:
My vacations took me days to recover and I was actually kind of dreading it because being out of the office meant I had to do more work before I left and more work when I came back. And so I wasn’t getting out of that. And also there was a piece to that that I wasn’t as cognizant about at the time, but that perception of me being that amazing rock star who was doing it all was actually also hurting my perception and my advancement after a certain point. And so I had to kind of wake up to that and realize how do I change that? And for me it was unfortunate because I wasn’t sure I could, which I think I hear from a lot of people. There’s, you know, this is just the expectation of the industry, this is the expectation of my role. I just have a lot going on and in order to do this, I have to be the best person. And it kind of took me stepping out of the industry and starting to learn some tools and some skills for me to reflect back on the things that I could have done differently but really just couldn’t see it at the time.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, I mean, what we’re talking about here is burnout prevention, right? It’s not just looking at what’s happening now, but really looking towards the future. To say, what are the tendencies, what are the patterns, what are the assumptions I’m making and what success is and looks like and how I get there? And in the process, kind of just setting yourself up for burnout, it kind of reminds me a lot. We were having a conversation last week on a panel for the AMA local YP chapter, the Young Professionals. And I just, I love it so much. They’re so young and bright eyed and ready to go and unfettered and unbiased, like not biased, un. What’s the word?
Dana Zellers:
I’m thinking, yeah, they’re uncrushed by their shit. Right?
Amy Vaughan:
You know what I’m saying, Dana? And you know, one of the questions that they had prepared for us was, you know, what, what work should we be taking on, what projects should we be taking on, how available should we be making ourselves to this extra work? And I said, you know, that’s how we all fall into the trap. No matter where we are in our career, young professional or op, old people, old professional like me, I said we. We say yes to too much. We think that doing is leading and it’s not because it keeps you trapped in that space of always doing and never getting to that 30,000 foot view. And so I’m really excited to dig in some more with you. And I also want to remind those folks that are listening live, we want you to ask questions. If you have them, put them in the chat. We love having live listeners here because if there’s something I’m not hitting on that you all need from Dana, I want you to ask.
Amy Vaughan:
But first, let’s talk. Which is a nice tangent from what we just discussed. Having more control than we think we do. I think this is such a nice reality. It sucks. I hate to say it, but it’s such a good reality to come from someone staring at a calendar packed with back to back meetings that might feel impossible to believe. But where does that control actually exist? And why is it so important to recognize this too?
Dana Zellers:
I would add that it is crucial. I think the thing that many of us don’t realize as we grow up in our career, we start as doers. So we enter our job and we’re basically told to do this task that we were trained to do. And so we keep that as our mode of working as we rise in the organization and in our roles. And I think what we really need to do is realize that other people are not designing our careers or our days for us. Yeah, they are just asking us to do stuff. It is our responsibility to really understand where we want to go, what we want our days and our lives to look like and figure out how we can make that happen.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Dana Zellers:
And we really do get into this, this frame of, you know, I have to do all of these things, I have to go to all of these meetings. But the reality of that is we want to step back and look at the bigger picture. It’s not just about checking off everything that’s in front of us. It’s about figuring out what we’re really trying to accomplish. What are the most important things for us, for our manager, for our department, for our organization, and how do we filter and take control over those pieces so that we’re focusing our energy on the right things. It is our control and our responsibility. But we also have a partnership that we want to develop with our manager where we help them understand what we are trying to do. We get their buy in that we are on the same page about that.
Dana Zellers:
And then we start to figure out what are those levers that we can start to play with.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Dana Zellers:
So that it’s not everything is on. It’s based on what we’re trying to accomplish. Really, where is the time best spent?
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. And I can imagine this is a challenge. I’m thinking of so many people that I’ve coached and mentored over the years and even friends and family that are close to me. We have this, such a strong sense of accountability and duty. I think this is very much like a western workaholic philosophy and mindset. Right. Yay capitalism. But also, you know, I think like you said, looking at and focusing on what you can control and looking at what lights you up, what does success and progress look like for you? What are your values? That to me, taking the actual time to pause, slow down, look at your calendar, look at where you’re spending your time strategically and saying is sitting in this hour long meeting that’s an everyday meeting.
Amy Vaughan:
Is it absolutely necessary? Is it making my work better? Is it getting me my promotion? Is it effective? Then maybe it doesn’t need to happen every day.
Dana Zellers:
Right.
Amy Vaughan:
You know, it’s like one of those things where I think we definitely get in our own way. And like you said here, it’s like we are handing over the keys to our definition of success to other people by letting them control our calendar, by letting them control the deadlines, instead of knowing kind of big picture where we are, where we want to go, and sort of kind of using that as our boundaries. You know, we talk about boundaries a lot, but we don’t talk. I don’t think we often share it with people, how to define them and find them. And to me it is about painting that picture of where you want to be in three to five years, but also looking at your values. So if something comes your way and it’s out of alignment and they’re like, take this project, you would be so good at this. Okay, yeah, I would be good at it. But is it going to get me where I want to go? If it’s not, then it’s a no.
Amy Vaughan:
Does it align with my values? Is it something that I treasure, that I, that I will go out of my way to do extra for because it’s important to me, then yeah, sure, that can be a yes. And if it’s no, then yeah, definitely no. And it’s just for me, it makes sense that it uses decision fatigue and analysis paralysis, right?
Dana Zellers:
Yeah, absolutely. There was one thing you said in There that I want to make sure that we’re really hearing, which is sometimes we need to slow down, we need to slow down again to speed up. This is going to have us be more effective and more impactful in the long run. I do a lot of clarity work with people because it is one of those things where if you asked anybody on the street, are you clear about what you want? They would probably say yes. But when you really dig into it and say, okay, are you? And how does your life reflect that? They would say no. And so a lot of the work that we do. And I will give you my four keys to clarity.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes, I love it.
Dana Zellers:
So the four keys to clarity that I work with a lot of people on is reflection. So take the time to really look at your life. When were you happy, when were you fulfilled, when are you lit up and when are you not? And what is it about those things that’s really working or not working for you? And again, different times in our life, it may manifest in a different way, but oftentimes there’s something underlying that that you are or aren’t getting, which can help inform the second key, which is your values, which is what you were talking about. So we really want to be clear on what our values are, what’s important to us. And doing the exercise of really sitting down and coming up with lots of words that represent all the things and really kind of narrowing it down and stack ranking, you know, your top three to five values and have those printed out, have those on your monitor. These are one of the things that you want to come back to again and again. And like you mentioned, it’s going to help you with those decisions, it’s going to help you with that second guessing and it’s going to help us inform key number three, which is our vision. So we do want to spend a little time thinking about where we want to go.
Dana Zellers:
Yes, the future is going to be different than we expect it to be. But we want to start mapping out what is that North Star, what are the things that I want to be moving toward? How do I not only plot a plan to get there, but how do I start bringing that into my life today? We are not going to be these destination people who are waiting to be happy. We are going to figure out what’s important for us now and start incorporating that into our lives. And then the fourth key on that is all of those keys right now. I have talked a lot about who I am, what I think, and what I believe. But I don’t know everything. So what are the gaps in my knowledge? What are the pieces of information that I don’t know and how do I get them? How do I research? How do I talk to people and how do I try things on to keep informing that clarity so that I really think about what’s important to me? So that’s really the process that I take people with. And that’s important for you, but it’s also important to put that lens towards anybody that you’re working with. So what is your manager thinking? What is your organization thinking? What is a similar way that you can ask those questions about what’s important to them so that as you’re deciding what you want, you can communicate that in a way that’s laddering up to what’s important to the organization.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Because what you’re talking about there is alignment. And I’m sure you hear this all the time too, Dana. People are like, I’m leaving my job. I actually like what I do and I like who I work with. But there’s no growth. I’m not growing. And it’s like you said again, like they’re handing over control for their career, success, happiness and growth to the company that pays them a paycheck to do a job.
Amy Vaughan:
Like, you’re asking the wrong person. So I love your framework and I love what you’re offering, because I agree, it’s very much a reflection. We. We just evaluate. I think we see it. I don’t know why it is like, if it’s too woo, it’s too much of a feminine practice. But I can think of men that would benefit from this greatly because there’s no point in burning yourself out and working so damn hard only to get to what you thought was the perceived position of success and find that you weren’t happy.
Dana Zellers:
Absolutely.
Amy Vaughan:
Because I’ve been there.
Dana Zellers:
It happens to so many people. And I get a lot of people who are like, mid what I would say mid career. I think that the term is lost these days on our trajectory. But it is that, you know, I’ve become successful in my role, and oftentimes there is still a part of that that intrinsically I love that is exciting to me. But they get to that point and they’re like, I’m not happy. And I’ve spent all these years ignoring my personal life, ignoring my health, you know, sort of back, you know, backseating my family, all of those things. And that’s what’s important to me. You know, my job is in support of my life, my Life is not in support of my job.
Dana Zellers:
And so how do I keep what I think is this. I need to be giving 100% of my job in order to be successful. How do I shift that and still keep my role and keep that success, but start to really prioritize the things that are important to me. And so that’s a conversation people are looking at from now until retirement. What does that look like? So that I’m not putting off this again. Someday I’ll have time. But how am I bringing that into my life now?
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, the procrastination is real. I definitely am really good at that. We do this whole workshop at the start of every year. We were talking about January and the reset and the new you with our goal getters. And I learned that my productivity style was to eat frogs. I will do every little task that needs to be done. I will not do the thing I don’t want to do, which just sounds disgusting, but eat the frog. Right.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s why. Thanks Mark Twain for the visual and analogy. But it’s effective, right? Because it’s like he says, the first thing you should do every morning is eat the frog. So that has really helped me kind of stop procrastinating. Do the one hard thing that needs to get done and how much of the mental burden and load goes away when I kind of understand myself better. Because I think one thing I’ve learned over the years is everybody’s productivity style is different. And so do you. The way you get things done and what success looks like is going to look different for you.
Amy Vaughan:
So that was another bonus question I had that wasn’t on our list was how do you work with people and encourage people to identify those values and what lights them up in success when we are constantly being influenced by the people around us and the media and everything else and being told. Told what success should look and feel like. It means a title, it means a salary, it means a suit. I can tell you it’s none of those things, but I know that there’s a lot of people who still think that’s the case. How do you work through that with them?
Dana Zellers:
Yeah, I think through that clarity process, it really uncovers. And again, I get people who start and they’re like, yeah, yeah, I just want the promotion. And you’re like, okay, those are not people that I’m going to start with. Clarity boot camp, where we dig in. We’re going to do that as a part of their goal. But as we’re doing that, we’re always going to be doing the inner work. So many times people come to me with one thing as their goal. But as we start really moving along that process, I can continue to ask questions, I can continue to talk to them about what’s important, why they’re doing things, and really uncover what it is they’re trying to accomplish.
Dana Zellers:
You know, one of the examples I use on the visioning work a lot of times is, you know, people want to buy a big, beautiful house. So that might be on my vision board. And so I’m putting that up and I’m thinking about that, and all of my energy is going towards buying that big, beautiful house. But then we start to uncover what it is about that big, beautiful house that you really want? And sometimes it is status. You know, I want to be next to my neighbors and I want to be seen as a successful gospel. I want to be doing those things. And so that is true, that is real, that is valid. And so we need to acknowledge that as a part of the conversation.
Dana Zellers:
It’s usually not the only reason and it’s usually not the main reason. So usually it is, you know, I want financial safety and security. I want to care for my family. I want to be in a beautiful, serene surrounding that gives me that ease and comfort.
Amy Vaughan:
You feel like you’re at home.
Dana Zellers:
Yeah. And so then we can start to really uncover, like, what is it about whatever it is you’re saying you are going towards that really is at the core of it. And again, the picture of where we go for that might look different. It might be that big, beautiful house. I’m not saying it’s not. But that longer term vision can look a little bit different. But then we again go back to how can I incorporate that into my life now? What are the things that I’m missing that I’m longing for? And then as we start practicing and playing with those things, then we get more information. We get more information about what’s really resonating, what’s making us happy and comfortable and confident and what’s not.
Dana Zellers:
Because there will be a lot of steps along the way. And it’s like, I thought I wanted that and yet, you know, I immediately move to what’s next or I’m not fulfilled. And then you can really start to break it down and get to the truth of what is really going to be success.
Amy Vaughan:
I feel like that might have been like the best sound bite probably. I mean, we still have like 40 minutes, but like this next hour, because of what you’re asking people to do and I think I’m going to even try to start doing this because I was mentally as you were speaking, like, deconstructing your wants. I’ve often said, follow your envy. It’s showing you what you want. Oftentimes you see that big, beautiful house, you’re like, so jealous. I wish I could. But it’s like, okay, what is it about that house that I want? You said financial safety, security, serene space, a sense of home when I come there, a place where I can bring people together, like there’s. It is more than just that.
Amy Vaughan:
And to your point, exactly, by deconstructing those wants, I’m really starting to learn what it is right now that I need. And again, to your point, rather than waiting for that big long someday to happen, which just stretches out for however long, you can start to be like, okay, well, maybe there’s things I can do at home, home right now to create that sense of serenity, that sense of space. You know, maybe I can find a location where we can gather. Because if I want to gather, then I should just be gathering and that could be anywhere. I really, really love that. And I think it does kind of get past that surface level of the once. Right. Because you also mentioned something earlier that I’ve gone down a rabbit hole of hedonic adaptation.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, you want, you want, you want, you get. And your brain’s like, great, we got it. Next thing. Yeah, and that’s not your, your body, your brain, your mind, everything needs not that little hit of dopamine, but it’s like the release of serotonin. Right? That, that longer lasting high of like a sense of safety and satisfaction and security. And so that boat, that plane, that big house, just checking that box isn’t going to do the thing. I love that so much, Dana. I’m.
Amy Vaughan:
This is like, this is good. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m getting a lot out of this.
Dana Zellers:
I think the other piece that you nodded right there too is the fact that I think again, this goes back to the slowing down process where, you know, we’ve all got our projects and we’re familiar with doing things like our project Retros or whatever we’re calling them these days. And we want to incorporate that into our everyday lives. So we want to be having a review and planning. So, you know, I recommend that people do this on a daily, weekly, monthly, annual basis. But really what it is is not just the moving on to the next thing, but what we’re really missing is that reflection. So what happened? What. What did I do that was amazing? How can I savor and celebrate my successes?
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Dana Zellers:
Rather than just moving on from them? And. Yes. What do I want to keep doing moving forward? And what do I maybe want to do a little bit differently? What do I want to try next time that might have a different outcome? Really treating it like getting information for experiments that I’m going to continue with moving forward, but that really. Pausing and reflecting. We don’t appreciate our accomplishments. We skip right past them. We have such a negativity bias that all we can look at is what went wrong and what we’re missing. And so we want to pause and enjoy and embrace those moments and retrain our brains that we are doing good things and good things are happening to us.
Dana Zellers:
And these are the things I’m enjoying. So how do I incorporate more of those moments into our life? When I’m planning, it’s not just about the next project that’s being done. It’s about, you know, we were talking about, you know, maybe vacations or camping. It’s like, what are the moments that are really important to me and how do I make sure those are incorporated as well? Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. It’s like its intentional success is what it is. Right? Intentional success. Yeah. We literally were just talking before we all hopped on live with y’ all about how, you know, this season is my kids fall break. And I’m usually planning a conference, which I am, but it’s in January now instead of October. But I’m also opening up a co-working space next week and how this weekend is usually like my weekend. I just go somewhere with my kids and like, literally no wifi, no Internet, and just be present and be in nature.
Amy Vaughan:
And for me, that’s such a necessity. And so I’ve done a good job these last few years of making sure that there’s those standing moments every year that I will always do my best to kind of make sure they’re kind of a part of how we schedule things as a family. Because I think that helps me. It helps them. And like you said, you know, you need that pause to be able to come back stronger and work harder. Like, that’s. That’s the necessity. What you’re talking about, Dana, is doing less, which sounds.
Amy Vaughan:
Sounds a little scary to some people. Sounds luxurious to me and amazing. Sign me up. But you’ve developed the six Ds of doing less. Could you talk us through with that? Because we love our frameworks here.
Dana Zellers:
We love each other.
Amy Vaughan:
Talk about our framework a little. Your framework and how someone could start to apply these 6Ds as soon as we get done here. Because, you know, it’s Friday. It’s Friday.
Dana Zellers:
Now is the perfect time. Absolutely. So the foundation that we talk about before we move into the 60s is that clarity works. So in order for us to decide what we’re going to be doing and how we’re going to be doing it, we really need to know what’s important. We need to know what’s important to us, to our organization, all of those things. And we need to know what’s important about how these things fit in. So that’s the first thing we do. The very first D that we look at is dump.
Dana Zellers:
So we want to dump everything that we have to do on our to-do list. I do suggest if you have time, having this be a larger exercise is great. If you want to do this just as a part of your weekly process, it’s going through and looking at all your to dos. So looking at everything that you have on your to-do list, everything that you have on your calendar, all of those pieces, so that we’re sort of looking at things holistically. We never want to look at any. Yes. In a vacuum because that’s not our reality. If that were the only thing we had on our plate, we might treat it differently.
Dana Zellers:
But we really want to make sure that we’re looking at everything that we have to do. So once we’ve dumped everything out, then we want to do the first D, which is the hardest D. So don’t feel pressure that you have to do this one right away. But it’s deleted. So we want to decide what we’re not going to do. We are not going to get to everything that we have on our to do list. And so there is so much benefit in deciding ahead of time that we’re going to delete it. So I’m not going to think about it anymore.
Dana Zellers:
No more of my energy is going to go to this thing. I’m going to decide the things of lesser value and I’m going to make sure that I’m communicating any dependencies so that nobody else is worried about this thing happening. So that’s the first thing we want to do. We can come back to this again and again. So don’t feel stressed that you need to delete a lot of things on your to do list. The next D that we want to go into is we want to defer. So I suggest that you think of this within about a month’s framework. So for October what are the things that really need to be dealt with or thought about in October? If it is not an October thing, I want to make sure that it’s accounted for, but I want to put it in my backlog because again, I don’t want to waste any energy on something that I don’t need to do now and might change.
Dana Zellers:
So I want to defer anything that I’m not thinking about and it’s written down. I have it someplace so that I can train my brain that there’s a place that I keep that information. Part of this really is that training so I can relax about those pieces. The next D that we want to do is we want to diminish. So there are lots of ways we could accomplish the things on our list. But when we go back to what’s important about that thing and what’s important for us, what is the least amount of scope that is going to satisfy that? What is our MVP of each task that we are doing? Again, it’s not in a vacuum. I don’t have endless time. So we really want to think about good enough here for some of these tasks.
Dana Zellers:
So maybe the scope of the task and maybe the time that we’re spending on the task, some of these things, like research, maybe it’s a time box. And so we figure out how much time we want to spend against those. The next D that we want to do is we want to digitize. And this really goes into the tasks that we’re doing on a repeated basis. How can we save time? So is there a system that we can do for that? Sometimes it might be just a checklist so I don’t have to think so much every time I do this as I go through it. Sometimes it’s an email template so that I don’t have to write that email. Sometimes it’s an internal department fact or it’s a form that you have people fill out. So what are the simple things that I can do that are just going to make something that I do on a repeated basis easier? Our next D is delegate.
Dana Zellers:
So this is the one that I think people want to embrace, but they have the most trouble with. So when I’m talking to my clients, they’re like, I don’t have anybody to delegate to. That sounds great, but where are my people that I can delegate to? And so part of this is a conversation with your manager about really what are the things that you should be doing and how can we help source the things that are not as important for me. Part of this is the reality that sometimes I’m going to order takeout, sometimes I’m going to hire somebody to clean the house. What are the things that are really going to benefit? Sometimes it’s spending money, sometimes it’s leaning on your family and distributing tasks. Maybe it’s on the girls weekend, not being the one who’s always getting the reservation or always doing the booking. So really just think about what you can do. That you don’t need to be the person who’s doing that somebody else can take over.
Dana Zellers:
And I did these in order. And of course, we can delegate much sooner in this ladder. But the idea is if we’re delegating things, we also want them to be thinking through the framework. We don’t want them to be doing more on this task than they need to. We don’t want them not automating all of those things. And so that brings us through the D’s of sort of reducing the amount of work that we have on our plate to then get us to what we’re going to do, actually.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Dana Zellers:
And oftentimes we still have more things on our to do list then we have time in our week. And so there’s a few ways that we want to handle that. One is going back through the list now that we’ve gone through it and kind of thinking about it. And then the other is, how do I be more effective with my time so that the things that I’m doing don’t take up more time than they need than they should? All of those pieces. But part of that is once I get clear on what’s important for me. And we’ve kind of been thinking about a month in a month, those new things that come in that are the things that we react to all day that take up all our time. I’ve been very strategic about my list. So as those new things come in, then I have an attention to, okay, is this more important than something that I have on my list? Is this something that I want to delete, diminish, digitize, defer, delegate? So all of those things that are coming in, instead of those being the things that take my focus as soon as I walk in every day, those are the things that now I’m seeing with such a stricter eye as to how I want to manage those new tasks and those reactionary things that come.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. Yay. I love a good framework. I’m sure all of our listeners like taking notes. So that’s amazing. We’ll include them all in the show notes, too. I think women in particular struggle with the delegate. I think oftentimes because we get rewarded so much for doing and being the doers, that it’s hard because you feel like it’s part of your identity, and you feel like what little recognition maybe you do get, it is going to come from the doing.
Amy Vaughan:
And so there’s. I feel like there’s some sense of, like, shame sometimes behind the idea of delegating. But I have to tell you, ladies, it’s. It’s freeing. Um, and as you were speaking, Dana, it just really occurred to me, well, it’s the six D’s of doing less. You’re actually going to accomplish more. You will be doing less and accomplishing more. Like.
Amy Vaughan:
Like, why would that not be something you want to go through the process of doing?
Dana Zellers:
Yeah. I think that’s really the reframe that we need to take. So instead of us saying, I’m going to start shirking my responsibilities, that’s kind of what goes through our head. Like, I’m going to. I’m going to say no to all these things, and, you know, it’s going to upset people, and I’m not going to get things done. And all of those things. What we’re doing is we’re saying, like, right now, what I’m doing probably isn’t as effective as it could be on the things that are important. And so whether you’re talking about carving out more time, whether you’re talking about getting that promotion, whether you’re talking about stepping into a new leadership role, this is really the mindset that you really want to take on, because why wouldn’t we want to be spending our time most effectively on the things that are most important? And so that goes back to when I was telling that story about the perception of busyness.
Dana Zellers:
Yes, there’s recognition in all of that accomplishment, but there is a little bit of, you know, when a leader steps into a room and is crystal clear on the things that are important and the things that they’re doing, you don’t think about that person as shirking their responsibilities. You think about them as being strategically focused.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Dana Zellers:
We all want to bring that into our lives and into our days, both our personal lives and our professional lives.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Because that does touch on that fear. Right. That if I start doing less, people think I’m not as committed or I’ll lose out on opportunities. And I think it’s, like, quite the opposite. You know, like you said, it looks like you are taking control of what you have control over. You are being deliberate and intentional about the things that you’re working on.
Amy Vaughan:
You’re talking to your boss and saying, I need to be more effective at work. I need to. The thing that you hired me for is the thing that I want to be making sure that I’m doing the most of. But how many extra jobs and hats do we take on in the workplace because we think it will lead to other opportunities and all. You’re not being a martyr. You’re just sacrificing yourself, your sanity, and actually the success of your work by taking on those things that you know aren’t going to serve you. You’re not actually helping the company.
Dana Zellers:
They’re not serving you, they’re not helping the company. And you’re stretching yourself so thin that I guarantee you when things go wrong, people will a little bit get it, but they will also a little bit be like, you dropped the ball.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Dana Zellers:
And so we don’t want to be putting ourselves in that position. We want to be setting ourselves up for success. We want to be doing things to the best of our ability so that we are getting the true recognition we deserve for accomplishing the things that were important. And part of that is slowing down and being strategic and planning what you’re going to focus on.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. So say they’ve gotten through all that and they’ve worked through the clarity and the values and the Ds and all of that. Not all of us have fantastic bosses. Right. Or maybe we just struggle with difficult conversations or direct conversations, especially when it comes to the things that we maybe want and need. Kind of on both sides of that. Difficult boss versus having difficult conversations, which is more of an internal than an external problem. What’s your approach for having those discussions in a way that doesn’t make you feel like you’re jeopardizing your job or your value or yourself?
Dana Zellers:
Yeah, I think it does actually go back to the clarity piece that we were talking about. So, again, I’m really clear on what it is that I’m trying to accomplish all of those things. But I’m also really thinking about it from your point of view. What are you trying to accomplish? What do you want to set these things up for success? And we have all had difficult bosses. If you have not, bless you and congratulations.
Amy Vaughan:
I know, right?
Dana Zellers:
But I will tell you, nobody wants to be a bad boss. They just are not necessarily equipped. They also do not have the bandwidth to do the things that they want to do. But if you approach them in a way that is thoughtful and really takes their point of view into account. They are going to be, maybe not immediately, but they are going to be thankful that you are helping them with this information and involving them in the right decision points. You are not always going to get what you want, but by really practicing that strategy and that thinking and that approach and again, really listening and asking questions and really understanding what they’re trying to accomplish, you’re really going to be much more likely to get to the ending that you really want.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. Well, because by putting it on paper, by creating your career path and strategy for yourself, taking ownership it. Here’s the thing about bad bosses. It’s like they’re going to reveal themselves and like you’ll get the answer that you need after that conversation regardless. Either you will get the support that you need from that boss that sees you and values you and says, wow, you did this great work of understanding yourself, your values, but then also considering the company’s values and plans and goals. And you’re trying to work in tandem with us, you know, and so to me, if they are accepting of you sharing this plan, great, you have the green light to go forward. And how many of us are sitting in a job where we’re just like waiting to get laid off? We’ve quit. You know, we’re waiting for that breakthrough moment, that opportunity that will just make everything shiny and better again.
Amy Vaughan:
Well, it’s not coming. Like the only person coming to save you is you. So by having that hard conversation with your boss and being very clear on what you want and even how you plan to do that to help them and the company and you, if they tell you no, you also have another answer. Like that could be your sign. Like I, you know, they say you people don’t quit bad jobs, they quit bad bosses. Right. And so if that doesn’t change, at least now you are clear and you have your answer. If you don’t have the support that you need to move yourself forward, forward professionally at least that’s my opinion.
Amy Vaughan:
I know jobs are not a dime a dozen around here. So I’m not telling you to just go and quit your jobs.
Dana Zellers:
No, no, no, no, no. But I think, but, but again, we’re talking about getting more information. That is what we are always trying to do is get more information. And with that information, again, I work with a lot of people who, like, want to leave my job. And so a lot of the things that we do in that role is we, we practice some skills. And then we see that it turns things around and maybe it doesn’t. Maybe that’s just an opportunity that’s not ever going to be the right fit. And you do want to start looking for other things, but those skills that you’re practicing, you want to learn and so this is a great opportunity for you to practice them.
Dana Zellers:
The other thing to think about is while you’re in a role, again, we have more opportunity to practice other things. So one is we want to be establishing a lot of relationships outside of our manager.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Dana Zellers:
We want to be talking to our skip, we want to be talking to other leaders, we want to be talking to peers. We want to make sure that we’re getting a full understanding of what is happening in the organization. Particularly if you’re looking to pivot in roles, doing that within your existing organization is going to be so much easier than having somebody in an external organization see your value and see how you might make that move.
Amy Vaughan:
Very true. I love it.
Dana Zellers:
So if you can do that move within your organization, that’s always something worth looking at. Can I create what I want where I am? Again, sometimes the organization itself is not going to be the long term fit. So again, maybe I’m just developing the relationship because relationships are our cash and so they are going to help us move forward. Maybe I’m practicing skills here that are things that I want to get under my belt, have an opportunity to do. So I’m really thinking about what I can get out of this job that is going to help me, even if it’s not that I’m going to stay in this role for a really long term. So while I’m starting to think about what I want, what would be a good fit, what are the kinds of organizations, what are the kinds of people, what is the kind of working lifestyle as well as what are the specific tasks that I’m doing. And so how do I start formulating what that move could look like while I’m still secure in a role? Because that’s going to help you financially, of course. But there’s also a certain amount of negativity which I wish were not the case about being out of a job is just going to be more challenging than being in a job.
Amy Vaughan:
So true. That’s so true. Yeah. So maybe it’s like instead of the quiet quitting, you if you want to quiet quit. I mean, I’m not going to discourage it per se. I’m going to say take that extra time that you’re not giving the extra and work on you. Because that’s going to help you for the next thing. And I agree, like, you know, the more understanding you are of yourself, the more aligned you are with yourself.
Amy Vaughan:
Honestly, the more opportunities come to you. I wouldn’t be sitting here doing this with Together Digital if it wasn’t for finding alignment with the things that I love and do. I wouldn’t be opening up a co-working space and have found the perfect business partner for that opportunity if I wasn’t spending my time and energy doing what you’ve talked about today, which is like, really understanding who I am, what I want to accomplish, what success looks like for me. So I know how. What opportunities are the right opportunities to pursue. But I will also say that’s how opportunities have come to me, even in the past.
Dana Zellers:
Absolutely.
Amy Vaughan:
And so instead of sitting and kind of waiting to be wanted, you will be sought out. That’s the other benefit, I think, of doing this work and being very clear on that. There was one thing too, as you were talking about relationships and work. I think one other thing I often stepped in, which, I mean, I wouldn’t change or go back on, but I think I would look at it a little bit differently. And I’m kind of curious how often you see this with the people that you work with. Like how much time we give mentorship, counseling, sponsorship and support to others versus time for ourselves.
Dana Zellers:
Yeah, yeah. Such a great question. I think that. But when we look at the mentorship and sponsorship and those things, there is a value not only with paying it forward, which I think so many of us believe in, but there is a value to ourselves. So by teaching something, by discussing something, we really start to understand it in a different way. We really start to lean into those things. We understand the potential of other people and move into those things. And so there is a tremendous amount of value.
Dana Zellers:
And I think when we’re looking at our sort of relationship, spiderweb is how I kind of think about it. We want to make sure that we are expressing ourselves in as many spaces as possible. We want to be looking to our mentors and sponsors. And again, some organizations have a mentorship program, which is great, but a lot of times what we do is we get slices of mentorship from different people in different roles. We have our own sort of board of directors, you know, where we’re looking to different people for. For different things. And the idea that that’s also sometimes a reverse mentorship, like people who are new and younger in, you know, in an organization. Yeah.
Dana Zellers:
They’re looking at things in a different way than we did. They are looking at, you know, digital as something that, as, as a, a, It’s a Gen X person. You know, we’re just, we’re just raised differently. You know, we were not raised in that same way. And so that new way and new perspective of looking at things is so valuable. So I think that really, in general, the thing that I would say is we, when we’re looking at our full plate and all of our Ds, that we’ve. We’ve dumped out what we’re not always making time for, in addition to vacations and rest and recharging and personal life and things like that, we’re not looking at our career development and sort of, that covers all of those things. And we want to make sure that we are making time for those things.
Dana Zellers:
How do we want to educate ourselves? What do we want to attend? What, you know, are we hiring a coach? You know, are we going to education? Are we involved in employee resource groups? Are we giving back? Are we being a sponsor and a mentor? And that is our. A part of a job that is a part of the career corporate ecosystem. And so I’m really thinking about how many of those. And yeah, we’re going to be in different phases and different times where those might ebb and flow, but we do want to make sure that we’re leaving time on our plate for those things because they are as important as the tasks that we do.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Taking care of yourself as any kind of leader, it’s such an essential thing to do. And I think it’s such a good, healthy thing to model. And I think, like, as you were talking, I was like, if I could go back to give, you know, myself advice for all the advice I gave to others, for all the times, for the coffees, for all the lunches, for all the event sessions, I just really realized how I gave a lot, but I asked very little. And that’s been something that has really changed within me and being part of together Digital, you know, we have our ask and give exchange where we encourage women to ask for what they need. No guilt, no shame, and to give without any judgment. And a lot of it is more focused on the task because it’s like a muscle you have to build up. It’s hard to ask for help.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s hard to accept help even more than it is to ask. I think sometimes, yeah, I think we.
Dana Zellers:
Don’T know what to ask for a lot of the time. And so we’re like, okay, well, there’s not an ask. And so I just won’t.
Amy Vaughan:
Yep. Yeah. So that’s why we kind of work to sort of change that narrative by providing opportunities through, like, the Slack community. Every event we have, whether we’re in person or virtual, we open up the floor and we’re like, who has an ask? Who needs something right now? Because there’s not somebody sitting in a room of even three people that doesn’t need something and help in some way. And like you said, the more you get used to, you know, making those tasks, it becomes easier to identify what the task should be. Because, yeah, it is deer in headlights moment. We’re like, what? Does anybody have an ask? And it’s like, ah, the answer is yes, you just are. So the answer is yes to ask for it.
Amy Vaughan:
And so that makes it hard. So you have to practice. Practice.
Dana Zellers:
Yeah. I love that I took a negotiation course just because, you know, it’s. It’s valuable to me and to my clients. And one of the challenges she gave us was to negotiate something every week. And. And so we sought out those opportunities. And having it as a challenge where you’re like, okay, what can I negotiate? What can I talk about? I will tell you, I’ve never paid a late fee since I love it. But
Dana Zellers:
But we’re getting into those conversations, and I think asking is like a similar thing. So thinking about, what are the things that you can ask for? What can I ask for now? Because the other thing that’s really interesting is the psychology of if you have a small ask to someone else, they are more likely to want to do things for you. They want to help. And I think the other thing that this sort of ties back to which we were talking earlier is when you formulate what it is that you’re looking for and what it is you want, it comes to you because you’re able to express it. And people have those opportunities. But if you walk into a room and you’re like, yeah, I’m great. People are like, that is awesome for you. Carry on.
Dana Zellers:
And it’s not that they’re not interested in helping, but they’re not going to do the work to figure out what it is. So we want to get better at making those tasks, at telling people what we’re looking for, even if we haven’t totally formulated it. So here’s, you know, here’s what I’m struggling with. Like, here’s what I’m looking for. Here’s all of those things. So figuring out how to get in conversations where you’re talking more about what it is you want, who you want to start talking to, who can they introduce you to, maybe so that you can start to have those conversations? And again, people want that. They want to be a part of that helpful cycle.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it always hurts when you see somebody struggling and you’re like, how can I help? They’re like, nope, I’m fine. Yeah, you know, it’s like, no, you actually not just hurt yourself, but you kind of hurt me a little bit. Like, don’t resist, resist, don’t decline the help. People want to be there. There’s that whole law of reciprocation as well, because. And that’s the beauty of it is now that you’ve been vulnerable and made the ask to them, they know that they can come to you and also ask for help. And it’s just.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s like, why? Why do we choose to live on these islands?
Dana Zellers:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
At home, at work, everywhere in life, and all it takes is a little bit of openness and vulnerability, and you’re going to find so many people that are like, oh, my gosh, the same. I feel that. I know that I. I’ve experienced that. And maybe they’re like a half step ahead of you or a half step behind you, but me, that is the beauty of peer mentors. And then things like that where. And I agree with you, it’s like, it’s inside of work. But I also think it’s super essential to find that circle outside of work, because no job is forever.
Amy Vaughan:
You need to find bonds, friendships, and relationships that transcend careers and life stages. And I think in order to do that, you know, it can’t just be all your best pals or your workmates. That’s also another big pitfall I’ve seen. Not to go on too much of a tangent, but it is one of those things where, you know, it just can become a trap. And so that’s why getting outside help, support outside of your company for your personal and professional development and growth, it’s again, like you said at the very beginning, it’s like you have the keys, you are in control. Instead of leaving that control to your job, because God forbid, tomorrow that job’s gone, all your resources are gone.
Dana Zellers:
Exactly, exactly. And so really thinking about, okay, within my organization, how do I do that? I was coaching somebody who was. She was basically the, you know, the only web person in her. In her team. And so she was establishing those relationships. But one of the things we really worked on was, where can you find your community? Where can you get those resources outside? Because not only do people in your organization not have the expertise of what you’re doing, but there are some conversations that. That you don’t know how to deal with them because you’re so worried about the politics of, like, I don’t want to seem like I don’t know what I’m doing.
Amy Vaughan:
Sure.
Dana Zellers:
I don’t want to seem like I’m demanding or all of those things. And so you can get perspective from other people. And you can also talk to leaders in other organizations who are going to help you frame it and practice in a way in your organization. And of course, down the road, when you are looking, you know, beyond your organization, which most of us do, at some point, you do want to make sure that you have a broader network. Network. Because, yeah, people. People that you know will leave to go to other places. But, you know, really reaching out to communities like this and other, more, you know, specific industry events, things like that, are really going to open those doors.
Dana Zellers:
I think people are reluctant to network and. And really what it comes down to is forming relationships. I think we are. We are people first. And thinking of it that way, you know, and it’s not what can you do for me, it’s how can we support each other.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Dana Zellers:
And really having that idea is something that I think resonates a lot more with people and feels more authentic to. To who we are. Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
Holler. Yeah, we can chit. Chat more about, like, some of the research in the book I’m writing on networking, because you just hit all of the points, Dana. All the points. Networking feels icky for so many reasons, and there’s just so much value to it. Because if you change your mindset, too, I am building relationships that are meant to transcend my career and life stages. Like, it feels a little less icky and business card swapping and whatnot. But really what we’re talking about here, Dana, I feel like, is your future proofing your career in a world right now that feels super uncertain, where the economy is all over the place, where companies are restructuring and layoffs and job seeking is hard.
Amy Vaughan:
You know, all of this work, even though it sounds like work, you’re going to be happier and more satisfied with it. You’re going to have deeper, better relationships for it. You know, I’d. I can’t think of any reason why y’ all shouldn’t be doing this if you’re not already. But looking at the bigger picture, you know, we kind of started in this place of doing less and what success looks like. How do you see the conversation around productivity and success starting to shift, especially for women, kind of in our area, digital and tech. And what gives you hope is that we’re moving away from this always-on culture.
Dana Zellers:
Yeah, no, I think that again, there’s a few pieces to that. So one is, I think that productivity has gotten kind of a bad rap because it’s the idea that people connote doing more.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Dana Zellers:
And that’s absolutely not what we are looking at. We are looking at being efficient with our time and effective with the things that we’re doing. So when I talk about productivity, my therapist joked with me because she was like, you’re talking about being more efficient with your rest. And I said, yeah, yeah, I am. Because if I’m taking 30 minutes off, I want to figure out how. What is the most restful? What am I really craving for? So it’s not me sitting there scrolling on my phone. So it’s relaxing for me. So I really think that sort of productivity and effectiveness is really what I’m talking about in all of those areas of our life.
Dana Zellers:
So it’s not about doing more. It’s about really looking at that holistic piece and saying, how can I spend the right amount of time on each of these things and not more time than things are worth.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, that’s so true. That’s another really good exercise too. Finding that little time sucks. It’s like the difference between making sure that your time is spent mindfully versus mindlessly. We all need to decompress, but I think we default to mindlessness versus mindfulness as a way to decompress. And what you’re talking about there and being more effective with your rest is really just being more mindful and aware of how you’re spending your downtime to make sure that it’s truly something that fills you back up, that gives you a sense of just deep contentment and satisfaction. And I’m not talking about mindfulness. It’s got to be a meditation or hugging a tree or anything like that.
Amy Vaughan:
Although those all sound good to me. Find out what that is for you and then that’s where you start to spend that. That time.
Dana Zellers:
Exactly, exactly. I mean, studies show again and again that being in nature, being, having movement, all of those things really bring back to you. And I’m really interested in that because yeah, I want to return my energy. I don’t want to just be spending energy. And so I want to know what those things are. And I think you’re absolutely right. It’s. We need to play with it.
Dana Zellers:
And how play is another thing that can be energy building. So like we need to play with those things and see what are the things that I like to do so that again, we’re not defaulting to some of those things that really seem easier but actually don’t refill our cup.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Dana Zellers:
And so. And so I think thinking about kind of everything in our lives with a little bit of that lens where we’re again being intentional about what we’re doing and how we’re spending our time just benefits us. Us in the long run and makes us happier and healthier and.
Amy Vaughan:
And everyone else around us. Right. And everyone else around us intentionally for ourselves in a way that actually does help us show up better. We’re showing up better for everyone. So it’s not selfish, like self care. You know, we see that a lot of self care is not selfish, but it’s.
Dana Zellers:
I know. I mean, I. Yeah, I think like what you were saying about, you know, we’re. We’re not talking about doing less, we’re talking about actually being more impactful professionally. That idea that these things are not mutually exclusive and in fact one really benefits the other. So that idea that really thinking about how we’re spending our time professionally also applies to personally. So when they talk about engaged work, communities are more productive. You know what rested, healthy people are engaged with their family and their personal lives.
Dana Zellers:
And so we really want to be thinking about all of those things because. Because it is not taking away from what we are trying to do. If we are talking about, you know, our quality of relationships, it’s not about more. It’s about really being present in all of those things and what do I need in order to be present in my life? And sometimes that’s downtime, sometimes that’s sleep. So making sure that I am filling my cup in order to fill other people’s. It seems trite at this point, but it’s one of the things that it is. If it. It’s simple, but it’s not easy.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Dana Zellers:
And I think we all know these things, but really giving ourselves permission and then figuring out how we practice them is something that we need to be just really thoughtful and kind of putting ourselves on our to-do list.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. All right, I’m going to do two quick power round questions before we sign off for the day. Dana, this has been so good. This is like one of those days in conversations where I was like, oh, and you needed all these reminders. Because as much knowledge as I might seem to have, as all the things I might have, all the readings, I’m done. Like, yeah, we’re all work in progress.
Dana Zellers:
We all need the reminders.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, we all backslide because life, life lives and work works and all the things happen. So my two of my favorite questions that we had that I think our audience would like to hear as well that were in the power round is what was the first thing you deleted? Because that was a scary thing you started, but then your D deleted from your calendar. That changed everything.
Dana Zellers:
Yeah, for me, I think the first thing I deleted was anything that was recurring.
Amy Vaughan:
Okay.
Dana Zellers:
So all of those things that I’m doing out of habit, for me, I started from scratch.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it.
Dana Zellers:
And I added some things back in, but I really deleted everything. And then I kind of started back to how I am intentionally choosing. Is this the right format? Is this the right time? Is this the right thing that I want to do? And so the clean sweep of that is a little weird, but that’s a.
Amy Vaughan:
Great place to start.
Dana Zellers:
It’s helpful. It’s like cleaning out your closet. You know, it’s. You can do a little damage by taking things out one at a time, but sometimes you gotta. You gotta take it all off, take.
Amy Vaughan:
Up a whole pile. I love the recurring. That’s great. And I honestly realized just now, I. I’ve done that instinctually for a long time because I like to do time blocking and day theming and things like that. But sometimes things change and I have to kind of take those and scrap.
Dana Zellers:
They start to kind of ignore them.
Amy Vaughan:
Well, and then like you said, if it’s, if it’s like that, I think I said it earlier that our meeting every day, like, is that an absolute necessity or do I just feel like that’s a have to do that’s really eating up my time? Because you need to. If you don’t respect your time, ain’t nobody else going to respect it. One last question before we jump off one boundary. You felt that you. One boundary that you set. That felt scary at first, but now you would never give it up.
Dana Zellers:
So this is less about a specific boundary than about a technique. But I decline things without an excuse. Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
Oh, I love that. I started doing that too. That’s so good.
Dana Zellers:
So people don’t need to know. They don’t need to know. I just, I. I can’t do it. It’s not gonna happen.
Amy Vaughan:
I know. And it’s just, it’s so funny because I’ve done it now, the last couple weeks, especially because life’s been so again life. And like I said, and I’ll be like, oh, you know what? I really wanted to do this thing for you and show up for you and help you, but we need to reschedule. And I won’t give the explanation. I won’t give the excuse, and I just send it. And people don’t come back all mad at me. They’re not like, what? Tell me why? I’m like, oh, I don’t. Friends just listen to me right now.
Amy Vaughan:
Like, unless it’s a partner or family member that’s dependent upon you in some way, you don’t owe anybody an explanation.
Dana Zellers:
You do not. You do not. And by starting to do it, it’s not only for them, but it’s like your emotional turmoil that you’re kind of putting yourself through. You’re like, is this a good enough excuse? Is this not good enough right? Are they going to hear it? Are they not going to hear it? No. God, I have made the decision that that is not happening. Right. And that’s it. And that’s all people need to know.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s all you need to know, people that in the whole last 60 minutes of this episode, this was phenomenal. Dana, thank you so much. We’ve talked about this topic a lot, but I just feel like we’ve hit on some really, I think, deep and important truths. And I really hope that our listeners get a lot out of it. And like I said, for all the conversations I’ve had and all the reading I do, I’m walking away with a lot. So hopefully they are too. And what a great way to go into the weekend. I hope you all carve out some time for yourselves.
Amy Vaughan:
Dana, if people want to reach out to you, get ahold of you, how do they do that?
Dana Zellers:
Yes. So I am@dana Zellers.com for my website. You can find me on Instagram at Dana underscore, Zellers, LinkedIn, Dana Dash Zellers. And the other thing I want to offer is I do have a free Better Week blueprint@dana Zellers.com Better Week, which will help you plan your weeks with intention. So it’s a great, great tool I work with most of my clients on and I want to make sure everybody has a couple copies.
Amy Vaughan:
Fantastic. Dana, thank you again so much for your time. Thank you to our listeners and our amazing friends at Heartcast Media for helping make all this possible. All right. We’re on time, so we’re going to wrap it. We’ll see you all next week. Until then, everyone keeps asking, keep giving and keep growing. We hope to see you soon.
Outro:
Produced by Heartcast Media.
