Amy Vaughan:
Hello everyone and welcome to our Weekly Power Lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughan and I am the owner and chief Empowerment Officer at Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections.
Amy Vaughan:
Join the movement@togetherindigital.com. Hello everyone, and today I am thrilled to welcome Ilise Benin, a nationally recognized business coach who has been helping creative professionals break free from under-charge over delivery cycles for decades as the founder of marketing-and-mentor.com. Ilise has become the go-to resource for solopreneurs and freelancers seeking better projects with bigger budgets.
Amy Vaughan:
A national speaker and the author of seven books, including the Creative Professionals Guide to Money. Ilise brings wealth and a wealth of practical wisdom in today’s conversation. Since 2008, she has been sharing insights as the Marketer Mentor Podcast, so be sure to check. That out and her signature program, the simplest marketing plan has helped countless creatives market smarter, not harder.
Amy Vaughan:
Sounds like music to our ears for our community members who are tired of undercharging and already attract or ready to attract clients who are truly ready to value their expertise. Today’s conversation promises to be a game changer for you. Ilise will share how to identify and attract the right clients, why marketing only works when you actually do it, and the mindset shifts that it takes for money, conversations to make them so much easier. Ilise, welcome to the Power Lounge.
Ilise Benun:
Thank you, Amy. It’s great to be here.
Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely. Yes. Happy Friday everybody. And for all of our live listeners, welcome. Happy Halloween. Ilise was totally in the spirit of things and I know that you are those who are listening to the podcast, can’t see it, but we’ve got, we’ve got Captain Ilise here.
Amy Vaughan:
She’s dressed up and ready to go. Um, so we could talk about that. Spooky, spooky, scary things. Money, right? Yeah. Um, so yeah, thank you so much for Liz, for being such a good sport and being here today. Let’s start with the good old elephant of the room, which is, um, you know. So many of our members face this.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s an abundant conversation that’s kind of always going on our Slack channel. Mm-hmm. Um, undercharging and overdelivering, what do you feel is the root cause behind why creative professionals consistently undervalue their work?
Ilise Benun:
So, I wanna start with a quote from a good friend of mine who works on Wall Street and she says, like me a little less and pay me a little more.
Ilise Benun:
And I love that because I love it, especially for women, right? There’s this people pleasing thing we tend to do, and it gets all tied up in our quote unquote self-worth, which I always put in quotation marks because really there’s no such thing as that, in my opinion. And we’re talking about business. This is business, and you have to understand that and essentially kind of.
Ilise Benun:
Take yourself out of it. Mm-hmm. And think about it as some other entity if necessary. And I just had a thought this morning actually, which is probably going to inform the next year of my content. Mm-hmm. But this idea that you have to start with the right mindset, but what exactly is a mindset? That was the question in my mind.
Ilise Benun:
I’m curious what you think of that, but my answer was. It’s the things we say to ourselves. Yes. And that we have total control over and we can change. And it’s more than affirmations. I’m not talking about affirmations, right? It’s like understanding when you have just said to yourself, oh, I can’t charge that, right? Mm-hmm. That kind of thing. It’s the negative that we say to ourselves that we have to surface and then replace with something better.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, a hundred percent. Like awareness is the key, right? Listening to that internal voice, acknowledging the presence of it, and then acknowledging that tone and that internal narrative. I agree. I think that’s exactly what mindset is. Mm-hmm. And it’s something that you can train and coach to be different. Mm-hmm. You know, I think I tell my kids a lot just because you think it doesn’t make it true. Mm-hmm. But. You can think it into being true. Mm-hmm. Like, you just have to let yourself think about it.
Amy Vaughan:
So it is a total mindset thing. Um, and I love that. Like, be a little less, pay me a little more or a lot more. I want that tattooed on me. Yes. Yes, exactly. That’s a great quote. I’m not gonna forget that one. And you all know me that is listening. I love a good quote. Cool. Awesome. All right, next question. You know, like we talked about this being a little bit of a cycle sometimes, right? Of falling into the space where you aren’t charging enough or you are, um, uh. You’re, you’re going out of scope a lot with clients. You know, sometimes the work feels hard to define and you actually hit the nail on the head.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s the people pleasing part. Um, and, and you talk a lot about attracting clients who pay you what you’re worth. That feels sometimes. Impossible and unreachable for some that might be listening, how do you help someone identify what they’re actually worth versus what they think they can get away with charging? Because there’s always this weird line, right? As to what we think that could be, should be looks like, especially when we don’t talk about pricing often.
Ilise Benun:
Yeah, that’s true. Um, I guess I would start. By just repeating what I said before, which is that I don’t think there is such a thing as what you’re worth. So if you can realize that, mm-hmm. And then the next step is what? What do I need to earn? You know? Yes. That’s really the important thing. Do you know how much you need to earn to break even? You should. And to make a profit. You should. Mm-hmm. And then you work with those numbers to basically find the people who can pay that.
Ilise Benun:
And so this is one of the things I call a pricing problem with a marketing solution, because often people try to. I don’t know, hope or convince the people they’re talking to to pay more. Mm-hmm. It’s unlikely they can even mm-hmm. And we’re usually, unless we have very proactively and intentionally pursued the prospects, the ideal prospects that we really want, the ones we have are probably not.
Ilise Benun:
Them. Most of them, yeah. And so we have to do the marketing to, number one, identify the people who have the big bucks. And that’s a guess because, so then you have to go through the marketing process and get to the proposal process to figure out and have that conversation about whether or not they can afford the kinds of numbers you’re talking about.
Ilise Benun:
And then. You know, to pursue more like that. So, I mean, one solution that I often advise is if you have one client who is your ideal client and who can pay what you want to charge, then clone them basically, right? Yeah. Use your marketing. To clone them, and AI is actually really good at this. I’ve been teaching a lot of people lately how to find clients with ai, and all I have to do is put in like, here’s the website and the LinkedIn profile of my ideal client. Find me 10 more like them.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s brilliant. I do love using AI for a little bit of digging for that. I did something kind of similar where I went and found LinkedIn profiles ’cause you could download them as PDFs mm-hmm. Of people that were our ideal clients or, or like most kind of like engaged long-term members and then put those into, uh, AI to say like, what does this demographic look like?
Amy Vaughan:
What does this psychographic look like? And that really helped me as well because it, as you were talking too, it kind of reminded me of one of my friends. Couple friends who own different catering businesses. This is like a great real world example. Right. And they are, they’re both caterers, but, and they’re both phenomenal women, but they both serve very different markets, but they’re both caterers. And one of them is, she calls herself all inclusive because they will work with any budget, any timeline. I mean, they just stretch and compress and com expand, like whatever you need, they will do. Shout out to magnificent morsels. And then my other friend, Selima Sole Kitchen, she is like, I charge for bougie.
Amy Vaughan:
Like I am bougie. You are going to get premium quality food. You’re going to have an experience and if you can’t afford me, that’s a you problem, not a me problem, because that just means there’s other caterers for you. And so two exact same com types of businesses, both owned by really amazing women. Both phenomenal cooks, but both are clearly going after a different, different audience based on the kinds of clients and what they want to get paid. Now, crystal, you know, with magnificent morsels, her business model makes it such that they can be all inclusive and work within just about any budget. Um, but that takes a lot of time and effort on her part. You know, there’s a lot of operations to that.
Ilise Benun:
And it’s not just that they’re two different businesses, those are two totally different markets, and so require a different type of marketing. And the thing you’re also making me think of is that price is often a marketing tool. It’s a positioning tool, right? And often people think, well, if I give a low price, they’ll hire me or I won’t lose them. Mm-hmm. And actually. There are many clients, especially those who want value and quality. Mm-hmm. Who will hear a low, a price, a low price, and think, oh, that’s too low. It can’t be any good, and they won’t choose you.
Amy Vaughan:
A hundred percent. I feel, I feel like I’ve heard and seen that happen. Yeah. I had one of our members, um, reach out to me a while back. She got, um, this amazing opportunity to do the cover and then a spread of a magazine, a local parenting magazine. Um. For a year. And she sent me the estimate, and this is the thing I love about digital and us just talking about prices. She’s like, I don’t really know. Am I charging the right amount? And she sent it to me and I was like, oh my gosh, you need to double this price. And I think she was just, she wanted it so bad.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. She wanted to remove the barriers of them having any reason to say no. And I mean, she was approached about this project specifically. It’s not like they were bidding it out. Mm-hmm. They literally went to her and said, we want you to do this. Mm-hmm. And I cleared that up with her and I was like. Dude, double it. She doubled it. They didn’t even bat an eye, right? They’re like, okay, great. Let’s go. You know? I think sometimes we let price be more of a barrier. And like you said, we don’t…go ahead.
Ilise Benun:
Here’s the mistake I think she made, which is not having the money conversation before she made the proposal. Right. That’s why my refrigerator says, let’s talk about money. Yeah. Because in that very first conversation, you have to talk about money and you have to not say actually, what’s your budget? Because most people don’t know. Right. Or they won’t tell you. You say, well, are you thinking 500, 5,000 or 50,000? Uh, here’s my spectrum. Tell me where you are on my spectrum, and then we can talk and then you’ll know if they can afford you. Right.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. Yeah. And that answered my next question perfectly, like. You know, when we’re trying to have the money conversation, it can feel like a struggle and it feels like a game, right? It’s a guessing game. It’s a bidding game, but I think it’s a zero sum game for both you and the client because you want to provide the client with the most value possible, right?
Amy Vaughan:
Typically, most of these women that are working here together are digital. Mm-hmm. And so to try to meet that need, but then not lose your backside is like a whole nother thing. So what do you think the mindset shift is that it takes to be able to feel comfortable discussing budgets and rates? Because I think. People as you even start to say it, they’re like, ah.
Ilise Benun:
Yeah. Well, first of all, going back to um, one of the examples you gave, you have to not feel like you need it. Mm. You have to go into that conversation thinking, if I get it, great. If I don’t, it’s fine. And again, this is a kind of a pricing problem with a marketing solution because if you’ve got lots of other irons in the fire, then you won’t feel like you must have this one.
Ilise Benun:
Yeah. And so that. I wanna call it desperation, because often people do this desperation pricing. That’s fair. Because they desperately want it. Whether they desperately need it or not is a different issue. Mm-hmm. But you do this desperation pricing, and the other people can feel it. Yeah. And so you have to go in with a very like, all right, kind of experimental, like this is an experiment. I’m gonna try putting these numbers on the table and see if they answer. Because I know sometimes people say, well, what if they won’t tell you if it’s 500, 5,000 or 50,000? Then you say, alright, how many zeros in your head?
Amy Vaughan:
Right? Right.
Ilise Benun:
Like there are other ways. If I told you it was gonna be 20,000, would you fall off your chair? There’s so many ways to say it, to bring a little humor to the conversation because they’re not comfortable talking about money either for the most part.
Amy Vaughan:
Well, and it always blows my mind as now running multiple businesses that people don’t have. People don’t have, they say they don’t have budgets. I, you have a budget and it’s not going to hurt you to be transparent about it. Because here’s the thing I find, at least with most independent service providers that are maybe usually referred or vetted or trusted, is that for me, it’s like, how can I make the most of your money and my time?
Amy Vaughan:
Right. And so I’m not looking to give you or overcharge you. I am really just looking to say, how can we be most effective with the money that you have? And so without that line of sight, it’s really, really hard to be a good partner. Yeah. You know, to do what needs to be done to hit the goals if you don’t have that number in mind. So to me as well, I mean, I don’t take it kind of as a red flag. Mm-hmm. I don’t know how you feel about it, Ilise, that if somebody’s like, I have no clue what my budget is, 50 or 50,000, I’d be like, yeah, you’re not my client. You’re not for me.
Ilise Benun:
That’s true, but also sometimes they don’t know. They know, right. So if you say, what’s your budget? And they like, I don’t really know what, what should this cost? ’cause they’ve never done it before, perhaps. Yeah. And, but this, the, the reason I say 500, 5,000, 50,000 is because as soon as you put some numbers in front of them, they know their budget all of a sudden. Right. It pops into their head. So, oh no, 50,000, obviously not 5,000. Mm. That’s a little high. Right. We were thinking more like three. Okay, thank you. Right. That’s what I needed to know.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s a great strategy. Well, hopefully some of our listeners will try it. Also live listeners, don’t forget, you can use the chat. So if you have any questions, um, this is a big topic among our community, so if you want to drop a question in the chat for Ilise, you can definitely drop it in and I’ll make sure we get it asked before we finish. Go ahead, Ilise. You’re getting ready to talk again? Um, yeah
Ilise Benun:
I had a conversation with a client this morning who was working on a proposal for a prospect of hers. Someone knew she’d never worked with. And we came up with kind of an interesting solution also that I think would be helpful because she had basically given examples. She’s a graphic designer. Okay. Given examples, uh. But without any pricing to this prospect who was interested. So the prospect came back and said, this looks good.
Ilise Benun:
I’m talking to other people. I need some prices. And she didn’t want to scare the person away, basically. Okay. By putting prices on. So what we came up with in terms of language is I know you’re looking at other people. Mm-hmm. But if our work is what you prefer, then uh, I’m hoping to avoid that. Make a decision based only on the numbers.
Ilise Benun:
If you like the work, then let’s talk, because essentially if you tell us what you can pay, we’ll tell you what you can get for that. Yes. And so I kind of like the idea of just being really honest. Mm-hmm. And saying. Please don’t make a decision based only on these numbers. Yes. Right before we talk. Why couldn’t you say that
Amy Vaughan:
A hundred percent. I love that so much. I think transparency is so key. ’cause again, I’m from both sides. It just allows transparency to allow for a better, stronger partnership. You know, having worked with as many clients and in varying budgets as I have over 15 years, the best work I’ve actually done never came from the massive budgets that had six or even seven zeroes.
Amy Vaughan:
Behind them. It actually came from some of those smaller projects where we were truly aligned with the client like the vision, the purpose, the outcome. And then we were really smart about how we used that money. And at the end it was a win-win for everybody because everything was clearly defined on the upfront.
Amy Vaughan:
Um, we had this conversation last year at our international conference and I. Flashback to Sarah Grace Moore, who I think is, she’s also been on the podcast as well, and they own a company that’s like, um, people Prosperity, and then the Mackey Group, which does like fractional CFO work, but also like personal finance, um, mentorship and support, and her mom started the business.
Amy Vaughan:
And it’s really all about understanding your relationship with money and finding joy. And money and celebrating money, which is something we are not very conditioned to do. Right. Um, so I definitely recommend you all check out the book, um, that Mackey has put out. The other thing Sarah Grace had said at one point was, you know, a lot of creatives have a tendency ’cause she’s a very big passion.
Amy Vaughan:
I should introduce you guys actually, Ilise. Um, she’s so great and you guys would hit it off so well. But she’s always saying like, creatives, like she’s such a passion for creatives. She’s a former designer, went to DAP at uc and all this, and now she’s in finance and, um. So, yeah, she was always like, don’t charge per hour charge per the equity that you are providing. Like what? What is the value of what you are bringing?
Ilise Benun:
And at the same time, I charge hourly. Yeah. So it’s different. It really depends on what you’re delivering. Mm-hmm. But the problem with hourly rates, especially for something tangible or electronic that you’re going to deliver, is that. Nobody knows how long things take. And so an hourly rate isn’t a price number one plus, the better you get, the faster you get. Mm-hmm. The less you make. And how does that make sense? So I think, and what I advise is, um. I mean, it’s all about the relationship and the conversation. So if you can gauge through that first conversation, number one, when you ask 500, 5,000 or 50,000, you’re not actually getting their budget.
Ilise Benun:
You’re getting the value that they ascribe to the thing you’re doing. That’s what you need to know, right? How do you value this? Because if you don’t value it the way I value it, yes, then no matter what price I’m going to give you is not gonna be the right price. So instead of so, so when someone says, what’s your hourly rate? My general response or advised response is, I don’t work that way. It’s not good for either you or me. Instead, I’m gonna give you a fixed price or a range.
Ilise Benun:
And you’ll know how much it’s gonna cost, and I’ll know how much I’m gonna make and it’ll be great. Mm-hmm. And if, for example, the scope starts to creep, then I promise. I will come up to you and talk to you about it. And if we need to renegotiate, we will, but there will be open communication about it.
Amy Vaughan:
So, Ilise, you’ve been running a marketing mentor.com for years now. What is the most common marketing mistake you see creative professionals making that might actually repel their ideal clients?
Ilise Benun:
Um, all right. I guess the biggest mistake I would say is. Well, let me start by saying self-promotion and marketing is not about you. Mm. That’s one of the myths. You think when you’re marketing yourself, you’re supposed to be talking about yourself, right? And some people say, my mother told me not to brag, or, you know, I don’t, I don’t know how to talk about myself.
Ilise Benun:
There are all these reasons, but the reality is that marketing is not about you. It’s about them. It’s about their needs, their pain, and only about you to the extent that you’re gonna solve their problems or cure their pain. And this is, um, I mean, it sounds, it makes sense, right? And it sounds logical, but I feel like there’s something about the way our brains are wired, that we are just so self-centered.
Ilise Benun:
Maybe it’s an American thing, I don’t know, maybe, but we are so self-centered that even when we. Understand that intellectually it’s really hard to implement it through our marketing. Yeah. And so when I say that, I mean. For example, um, what was it I was looking at? Oh, yeah. Someone sent me, uh, a chat thread mm-hmm.
Ilise Benun:
About a conversation that he had about his own marketing. He asked to chat, yeah. What should I do in my marketing ? The GPT said, um, do you want me to give you an outreach message that you should use for this market you’re interested in? And he said, yes, and I read it and it was all about him. And they don’t care about you, right?
Ilise Benun:
You have to start about the thing that they struggle with or the thing that they need, or the thing that, you know, that will make them say, this is exactly who we need because they really get us. Yes. So. Short answer. Making your marketing all about you is the biggest mistake.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes, I agree. I would add to that though. Um, we had an episode, I think it was two weeks ago now, and we talked about storytelling. Mm-hmm. I think where you might fit into the marketing message, and again, it’s not making you the hero, I a hundred percent agree with you, but it is speaking to how you have experienced that pain point. Hmm. And leading with a story that makes it relatable, but also builds that trust and credibility that like, I know, and it’s more about like, it’s more relational than sales or marketing almost.
Amy Vaughan:
Um, but I agree with you. If you’re not solving a problem, if you just, I, I think I’ve said it a couple times too on the show, like, don’t fall in love with the product, fall in love with the problem you’re trying to solve. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And anytime you get down that rabbit hole of just the product, the product, the product or the brand or whatever, you’re chasing the wrong thing, you know? I love it. Um, you got a shout out in the chat. I just wanna let you know. It says Artificial Ilise on chat. TPT is great. Tell us about that. I’m curious.
Ilise Benun:
Awesome. Yeah, so I created my own custom GPT. Which seems relatively new. Still Uhhuh, but it’s really easy to do and I’ve just uploaded, you know, all of my content. I’m a content machine. I’ve been doing this for more than 35 years. I’ve written seven books. I’ve got a podcast. I just uploaded as much of my content as possible. And so when you. Ask questions of artificial Ilise. She is speaking with my voice, essentially. She’s a little bit more verbose than I am Uhhuh.
Ilise Benun:
I tend to simplify and distill things into just the one thing that you should do next. And she gives a whole plan. But, um, she basically, you know, says, my, my Ilise is like marketing works when you do it, or, mm-hmm. Like all these things that I say. As well as she knows the simplest marketing plan. So she will tell you what to do within the context of the simplest marketing plan.
Amy Vaughan:
Very cool. I love it. Where can people find that?
Ilise Benun:
Well, she comes with the simplest marketing plan. There you go. Buy let.
Amy Vaughan:
Perfect. Next question as well. Great setup. Thanks Rosa. Um, so we have a lot of, um, marketing has become just always right, more complex. The funnels are more complex, the automation, the distribution, the platforms. Why in your, the simplest marketing plan, why do you advocate for simplicity when everything’s just getting more complex?
Ilise Benun:
Yeah. Because everything’s getting more complex.
Amy Vaughan:
Right?
Ilise Benun:
Right. I feel, I mean, the thing is that it’s just everyone is so overwhelmed. Mm-hmm. By all the things you could be doing or should be doing. I don’t think there are any shoulds. The marketing that works is the marketing you will do. And the biggest mistake, I was gonna say this, but it isn’t as related to ideal clients, but the biggest mistake people make is not developing a consistent marketing habit. Hmm. You must do it. Every day, every week.
Ilise Benun:
Yeah. Regularly. It must be part of what you do. It has to be kind of integrated into your work and internalized. Mm-hmm. So that you don’t need the simplest marketing plan anymore because you know how to do it, and you do it just as part of what you do every day. That is just so important to most people.
Ilise Benun:
HA are in the feast or famine syndrome because they’re not doing regular marketing and they think that when they’re busy, they don’t have time to do it. But that isn’t true. There are always things you can do, whether it’s making comments on LinkedIn, just a couple. Mm-hmm. That’s all it takes. Or reaching out to a few new people on LinkedIn. You don’t have to do a whole blog post or a whole LinkedIn post or a whole anything. Mm-hmm. Just a little bit every day. Will really take you very far.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, I agree. Consistency is so key. Yeah, I love that. All right, let’s talk about that moment when, and we had this exact moment a while back too, in our member Slack, we had a member who had not increased her rates in five years with a client.
Amy Vaughan:
So she had this client for five years, they loved her, and she had not addressed raising her rates in. Five years, how do you guide existing clients through their price increase, uh, without having that fear of losing them, because that was, I think, the biggest thing for her was like, oh my gosh, I’m going to say I want to increase my rates and they’re just gonna leave me.
Ilise Benun:
Yeah. So, um, all right. I have a couple different thoughts that I’m trying to keep separate. Yeah. I would say the first one is a conversation. Mm-hmm. It’s not an ultimatum. So you have to approach it as a conversation. And one of the ways to do that is to say, you know, and the best time to do this actually is the beginning of the year and we’re coming up on Yeah.
Ilise Benun:
A new year, so mm-hmm. You know, let’s start letting them know. Let’s do it in November. Right, right. Um. You know, maybe you’ve noticed that I haven’t raised my rates in five years, but what you don’t know is that all of my new clients are paying more than you are. Mm-hmm. And so I’m gonna need to bring you up closer to that level. And I’m hoping you want to continue working together. Mm-hmm. And that we can come to a number that feels fair to you, that’s more in that direction. What do you think?
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. Great script there. Hope y’all were recording that, writing that down a hundred percent. That’s such a great piece of advice and it can be such a scary thing. So fun fact. She did go back and she talked about increasing their rates, kind of similar, sort of a little bit of that script there. That was some things, like the members kind of helped her work through a massage and they were like, of course. Like absolutely. Because here’s the thing I’ll say too, as somebody who hires contractors and employs people, I.
Amy Vaughan:
And maybe it’s just because I am such an advocate, especially for women getting paid their worth. Like as long as I’ve got the budget, like I want you to hear. Mm-hmm. Even if I can’t give you what you’re asking for, I still want you to ask, you know, even if I absolutely do it, I still, and I respect you more when you ask.
Ilise Benun:
Absolutely. And in fact, I like to say it’s a betrayal of yourself if you don’t ask.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. I agreed a hundred percent. Alright. Um, lemme say one other thing. No, please.
Ilise Benun:
Because sometimes. People for some reason think I have to keep all of my original clients. Yeah. And the reality is that when you’re just starting out, you’re probably not, again, getting the best clients.
Ilise Benun:
And so ideally we wanna always be upgrading. Mm-hmm. And you do that through marketing. So I mean, it sounds like this particular person did wanna keep that particular client, but I wouldn’t always assume that. Right, right. Yeah. And if you’re doing marketing, then mm-hmm. You can let them go. Just let them go.
Amy Vaughan:
Right? Oh my gosh. That’s there. There’s a lot of, there’s a lot there to unpack, obviously with people firing clients, but I’m like, isn’t that why you went in on your own to begin with? It’s like you don’t wanna work for people that you don’t wanna work for that don’t pay you well, that don’t treat you well.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, and then we just double back because I get it. Bills are real and things like that. But you know a lot of what you’re saying, you know how marketing only works when you do it. Staying and doing it consistently looking for the audience that can afford you. Having those transparent conversations ahead of putting all of the time and effort into it.
Amy Vaughan:
When you start to have those money talks, you know it’s not going to happen overnight, but it is going to start to evolve and change the kind of money that you’re making. And I’ve, I’ve literally seen like the numbers and know that it works, um, on a number of levels. So, yeah. And then not only that, but like, because you’re getting paid better. You feel better about yourself. Yeah. Right. You feel like, feel you’re receiving and the client what you’re like getting is what you’re worth because we tie a lot to that, obviously. Yeah, I love it. All right, so you kind of mentioned earlier, and I’m just curious, I’m gonna go back to it for a second.
Amy Vaughan:
If, you know, you said like a lot of, I think creative professionals especially, you know, don’t brag, don’t self-promote, um, but also like. Consistently marketing yourself. I’m just gonna say it. It’s hard when you do it for everybody else. It’s kinda like my sister who manages a restaurant and used to work as a pastry chef and a catering chef. She hates to cook. Like she doesn’t wanna come home and cook more. Hmm. What should I do? What can us marketers do? When we spend all day in the kitchen marketing and we come home, we’re like, I don’t wanna market more.
Ilise Benun:
Well, first of all, I would do it first thing in the morning.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it.
Ilise Benun:
Right. Don’t save it for the end of the day. Eat the frog. Yep, exactly. Um. I don’t know. I mean, I have clients who, to me, this is the biggest win when a client says to me, you know, I used to hate marketing, but now I love it. And now the client work is like an interruption to me doing my marketing. Ah, and. What that means is that they have found a way to do their own marketing that feels creative and genuine.
Ilise Benun:
And natural and authentic and fun. Yeah. And it can be all those things, but if you have a mindset or tell yourself, Ugh, I hate marketing. I hate to do this, I hate to do that, I have to do this, I have to do that. Then you’re not gonna wanna do it, whether it’s in the morning or the night.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it and it reminds me actually too, I’ve said it so many times, I’m like, I am my favorite client. I am the easiest client to work with and work for. Mm-hmm. Whatever, I have a date. I can just do it and there’s not gonna be a million revisions. Yeah. So I totally get what you’re saying, Ilise. Mm-hmm. That’s so funny. Mm-hmm. Uh, let’s see. For solopreneurs, freelancers who are listening, what is the biggest difference between marketing yourself versus marketing a product or service? So I think this is gonna help bring some clarity to that self-promotion conversation we had earlier as well.
Ilise Benun:
Yeah. I mean part of the problem is when we’re marketing ourselves, we take everything really personally. Mm. Yeah. And if there’s one thing I’ve learned in life actually, it’s that not taking anything personally is better.
Ilise Benun:
Yeah. Right. And the thing that’s tricky about that is it means you don’t take the negative things personally, but it also means you don’t take the positive things personally. Mm. The compliments are not pats on the back. Mm-hmm. They are information about what the market likes. Mm. What the market wants more of what you’re doing is working for the market, and if you can just take yourself out of it. Yeah. It makes it so much easier.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. That’s so true. I love it. That’s so true. That’s great. All right. Uh, let’s see. You’ve written a couple books, seven, right, and Counting. Mm-hmm. Yes. Um, including the Creative Professionals Guide to Money, what is the most counterintuitive piece of financial advice that you could give a creative person?
Ilise Benun:
Uh, it’s kind of, uh, along the lines of something I said before, which is don’t ask for the budget. Yeah. Meaning, um, you need to get that information, but when you ask that specific question, often they won’t answer the question to ask instead after you’ve said, let’s talk about money. Mm-hmm. Or are you ready to talk about money? Or, here’s my favorite part of the conversation, the money part. You say, so are you thinking 500, 5,000 or 50,000? Yeah. Right. You just skip over the question. Mm-hmm. That is kind of open-ended. Mm-hmm. And just put numbers in front of them. That’s really the best way to get a number.
Amy Vaughan:
Hmm. I love it. Super helpful. Excited to hear if you all try it. All right. I’ve got one more question before we go into our power round. Lay listeners. Don’t be shy. If you have comments, questions, drop them in the chat for Ilise. We know this is a hot, hot topic for y’all. Um, all right. Looking at the creative economy today, how has the conversation around pricing and client relationships have evolved since you started your website and your business and everything? Yeah.
Ilise Benun:
Well, I started in 1988, so a lot has changed. Maybe a little. Maybe a little. There was no internet at the time. Right. So, um, that was one thing, but I mean, I feel like there’s a lot more competition now mm-hmm. Than ever before. Plus, yeah. The competition is a click away as they say. Yes. And so that. Makes marketing more important. In the past, people would say, especially creatives, oh, my work should speak for itself.
Amy Vaughan:
Mm-hmm.
Ilise Benun:
If they want me, they’ll come to me.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Ilise Benun:
All of these things that were kind of true at the time. Sure. Because there wasn’t all that much competition, but that’s one of the things that changed. And also because of that, I think you have to show your value more than the work. Yeah. Right. The value in the services offered, but also as a service provider, which means how you work. Because sometimes, like with this client I was referring to before who said, you know, don’t. Base your decision on just the money, because she wants to show that she’s very responsive.
Ilise Benun:
She’s a clear communicator. She meets deadlines, she meets budgets. Mm-hmm. All of those things about how you work are sometimes actually even more important. Yes, then the final deliverable because the client, if they’re not an expert designer in this case, they’re not gonna be able to tell if the work is good or mediocre. They can probably tell from the bad work, but some people can’t.
Amy Vaughan:
Right. Yeah, no, I think, I think that’s so smart. Um, showing that value upfront, whether it’s through case studies, whether it’s through your list of services and your process, and like that white glove, I think we’ve talked about that too is like hospitality, um, as a way to look at and run your business.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s not just for hospitality businesses. There’s a reason why people pay a premium for certain kinds of hotels or experiences. Yeah. It’s ’cause they know they’re gonna be seen, heard, and taken care of, and they’re willing to pay for that. So if you can show that, you know, it’s gonna put you above the rest. All right. We did. I had a question from one of our live listeners, which is fantastic. We love it. How to market, uh, when you’re pivoting your career or adding new services that you don’t have a whole lot of experience on. This is a great question.
Ilise Benun:
Yeah. Um, first of all, you have to. Uh, you, you don’t necessarily have to come out and say, I have no experience, right? You don’t necessarily want to be that transparent, right? But you do have to show that you know what they need. Mm-hmm. And actually, um, I read once. Somewhere. It said, if you can describe the client’s problem or the better and more articulately you can describe the client’s problem, the more they will trust you. Which means it’s not about providing the solution, it’s about understanding the problem.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Ilise Benun:
So I think that is really important. And then, you know, if you have to create some samples on your own to show that you can do this, even if you weren’t necessarily commissioned to do it. For money, buy a client. I think that’s okay. And I also think there are people who will give you a shot. Yeah. You just have to, you know, be as honest as you can. Mm-hmm. And don’t be afraid of, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, I have no samples. Right. Again, that isn’t necessarily always the most important thing. And one other thought. If you have related or adjacent experience Yes. That you can apply, then you talk that up basically. Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, I was getting ready to add that bill a hundred percent at least. Mm-hmm. It, yeah. Transferable skills are a thing. People: Yeah. You have more experience than you’re giving yourself credit for. Stop minimizing and diminishing your overall experience. Yeah. I can’t tell you how many women will come and be like, I have 20 years of marketing experience, but I’ve never done, um. You know, this kind of particular ad and I’m like, but you’ve run ads before, right? Like, hello LinkedIn. Learning. Like there’s so many ways to like to learn and train and scale yourself up.
Amy Vaughan:
Like that’s the beauty of our organization too, right? Is like I, I can’t tell you anybody that’s like. I studied advertising and design in school. None of my friends that graduated with me are doing the jobs, you know, with that degree. And very few women that come to us have that degree. Um, they are kind of using transferrable skills, career pivots, and then self-taught.
Amy Vaughan:
Um, ’cause the space that’s changing so much, so fast, you know, there’s really no way you can just go and get some degree. I mean, you can, and we definitely have members who’ve gone and gotten their masters. Um. I kind of am curious to circle back with them and be like, are you a better marketer now that you spend another like three, four years in school? I’m curious. I love school though. Don’t get me wrong. We’ll go to school forever here. We love learning.
Ilise Benun:
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, at this pace, actually, by the time you finish school, things will be so different. I can, yeah. But I, I. I don’t think that’s necessarily the answer.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, no, I feel you. I feel you. All right. Let’s get to our power round questions then. So these are some fun little lightning round questions for you. I will keep an eye on the chat in case we have any more questions from our listening audience. Mm-hmm. What is your go-to response when potential clients say your rate’s too high?
Ilise Benun:
Mm-hmm. Tell me what you have in mind. What can you spend? And I’ll tell you what I can do for that.
Amy Vaughan:
All right. Fill in the blank. My biggest money mistake, or the biggest money mistake creative professionals make is…
Ilise Benun:
Assuming you know what your prospect can pay. Mm Ooh. That’s a, without asking, that’s a Yeah. That’s right. For some reason people say, oh, I had a feeling they couldn’t afford this. Mm-hmm. So I charge that. How do you know that?
Amy Vaughan:
Right, exactly. What is one marketing activity that takes five minutes that most people never do?
Ilise Benun:
Making comments on LinkedIn. Yeah. That was a good piece of advice. Yeah. And, and really, I mean, the first reason people think posting is the thing.
Ilise Benun:
But, and then they get, um, disappointed or frustrated when nobody comments. Mm-hmm. Or, um, like it. Those are vanity metrics. You really, I mean, there are only certain types of posts mm-hmm. That gets engagement. You kind of have to ask a question if you want people. To respond. Mm-hmm. So, um, commenting actually is one of the best things you can do. I think it’s even better than posting.
Amy Vaughan:
Agreed. Yeah. It’s so funny. One of our members bought me a mug that says, thanks for liking my post, because I am that girl. Like, I will literally lay there and bed it before night and I’m like, oh, this is cool. This is great. Comment. Like, comments like in the API favors that people, it wants to see that you are engaging.
Amy Vaughan:
They wanna see that you’re DMing with people. They wanna see that you’re leaving comments. This goes for LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram, which are pretty prevalent in our spaces and what we do to promote. So yeah, and I mean it really just, again, it shows that you are engaging. It’s not a one-sided conversation. It’s not about you, it’s about them, like you said earlier. Right. Yep. I love it. Okay. Let’s see. What is that best piece of advice you wish you had known when you started your business?
Ilise Benun:
Um, when talking about pricing to start high. Right. Often, again, people are afraid they’re, they feel like they need it. And so they don’t start imagining. Without having had the money conversation number one.
Ilise Benun:
That, uh, the person can’t afford whatever it is you’re gonna charge. Mm-hmm. And the reality is that you have to start high so that you have room to negotiate. Yes. ’cause if you don’t negotiate, then they lose their respect also. Yeah. Right. You don’t, you should not just take whatever they offer. Mm-hmm. Then you’re kind of pegged as a doormat.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, don’t start at the floor. Right. I had Cindy Gallup on here once who, speaking of LinkedIn, if y’all aren’t following her on LinkedIn, she’s the best. And she was like, start with a number that almost makes you laugh out loud when you say it. That’s how you know you’re high enough. Like you need to feel like it’s so ridiculous. And the sad thing is for women, that number is probably about what the average white guy named Chad would probably charge and not think twice.
Ilise Benun:
And actually I have a marketing corollary to that. Yeah. Because often. People don’t do their marketing or don’t reach out to someone because they don’t wanna be perceived as that, you know, used car salesman. Sure. As they say. Mm-hmm. And I always say this to my people. There’s no way you would even, you don’t even have it in you to be that used car salesman. Yeah. You just have to do a little more than you’re doing, but you’re not even close to that line. Right.
Amy Vaughan:
You’re not in there, they’re not in their dms like every other day. That is so true. Um, and I think, again, like we both said a little bit earlier. If you are focused on them and helping them solve a problem. Yeah. It’s not you being a pain, it’s just you being present and ready for them if they need the help that they need
Ilise Benun: And they thank you when the timing is right. That’s a thing that will surprise you. Thank you for being persistent.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. All right. Well, oh, here we go. One more question. All right. What’s the best approach, uh, to reach your audience? For instance, my target prospects are SaaS companies. How can I approach them for video animation services?
Ilise Benun:
Well, you have to either know or ask artificial lice or chat GBT, what are their pain points when it comes to video animation services? I love it. And then reach out to them about that and ask, do they outsource these services? It’s not complicated.
Amy Vaughan:
Keep it simple. I love it. That’s a great question and a great answer, Ilise. I love it so much. All right, Ilise, thank you again, for sharing all your wisdom and your experience with the community today. Your insights on helping to attract clients and having confidence in money conversations is a. What a lot of us need to be hearing right now, especially like you said, as we’re coming to the end of the year, starting a new year.
Amy Vaughan:
For anyone who wants to dive into Ilise’s work more deeply, you can find her@marketingmentor.com. You can check her out, check out her mentor marketing mentor podcast, and grab or grab quick tips from marketing mentorships.com. And don’t forget to connect with her, of course, on LinkedIn as well.
Amy Vaughan:
Like comment, right friends? Yes. And remember, the clients are out there, but they really need you all. Right. Um, as Ilise reminded us, they don’t just land in your lap. You have to take some action, even if it’s little things every day. Yeah. So thank you again, Ilise, for joining us, and thank you everyone for listening. We appreciate you all. Yeah.
Ilise Benun:
You’re welcome. My pleasure. Thanks for the invitation.
Amy Vaughan:
Of course. My pleasure, Ilise. All right, everyone, that’s all we’ve got for today. Um, for those who are listening live, enjoy your Halloween, have fun, stay safe out there, and we will see you next time. Until then, keep asking. Keep giving, and keep growing
