Amy Vaughan:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to our weekly power lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share.
Amy Vaughan:
My name is Amy Vaughan, and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. You can join the movement at togetherindigital.com. And today, we are joined by someone who is transforming how businesses think about implementing design. Karen Baker is the managing owner of Seven Concepts Inc and has spent twenty six years providing design thinking that isn’t just about aesthetics. It’s a powerful engine for business growth named by Forbes as one of three women breaking the wait. It might have been not three. It might have been a year there that got lost. Being noted as a woman by Forbes who was breaking the glass ceiling in male dominated tech industry, Karen has been instrumental in reshaping how organizations like Pernod Richard and Think Local First DC approach innovation.
Amy Vaughan:
She brings a unique perspective on turning creativity into a competitive advantage, and we are thrilled to have her here with us to share her insights with our community. Welcome, Karen.
Karen Baker:
Excited to be here. Hey, everybody. Good to see you, Amy, as always.
Amy Vaughan:
You too. And we’ve got a future master class coming up with you as well. It’s great. Our last two podcast guests have been, master class, future master class facilitators too. So, you know, if you can’t get enough and you need some more Karen, you can join us for that as well. So we’re excited for that, Karen. And, again, just excited to hear your perspective and view on all things design and design thinking. You’ve been a champion for that for over two decades.
Amy Vaughan:
And I’m really curious what first drew you to see design as more than just a creative tool, but an actual catalyst for business transformation.
Karen Baker:
That is such a great question. It really took me to go to Savannah College of Art and Design and get my master’s in design management. And it took someone else to see in me that this was a career path for me. A recruiter from SCAD Mhmm. Saw my information for something else I had applied for, another master’s degree Mhmm. And hit me and said, I think this would be a great opportunity for me, for you to come into. So she sat with me here in DC Yeah. And went through everything.
Karen Baker:
I had no idea about design thinking at the time, and didn’t know anything about the methodology.
Karen Baker:
And she was like, this is an opportunity for you to advance yourself as in business, you know, and in your career to learn a new skill. She was absolutely right. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. And what a way to pay it forward, to see that potential in somebody and then just go right forward and let them know. Love that. And I love SCAD. We worked for a video marketing company where we did a lot of animations.
Karen Baker:
Oh, yes.
Amy Vaughan:
I know for those trips, and we got to go down there. And what an amazing campus and school and such brilliant students. I was jealous. I went to an art college. It was in Chicago, and it was nothing like SCAD. But, I love what you care about
Karen Baker:
SCAD is a young school, so they have an have an opportunity to when we talk about innovation
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Karen Baker:
To be innovative because they are so young, so they keep, you know, trying new things.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Karen Baker:
You know? And this was a program that was a new thing for them too.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s so wonderful. I would also give kudos to the Cleveland Institute of Art. We went up there as well, and they’re, like, like, not just their interior design, but their industrial design program looked really cool
Karen Baker:
Okay.
Amy Vaughan:
I was just nerding out so hard. I was just thinking, like, all of these different ways again in which design flows through and exists in every little thing that we do. Yeah. And we just take it for granted so much.
Karen Baker:
Very much so. Very much so. I think because we’ve just been taught that it’s the end. You know? And the only thing creative is what you see. Mhmm. It’s not what you have the idea about. And the process of creating, we don’t, yeah, we don’t see that and often don’t value it.
Amy Vaughan:
Uh-huh. Definitely. And so I wanna dig into that a little bit more too in how you work with organizations across public, private, academic sectors, because you’ve really helped span them all. What’s been one of the more surprising ways that you’ve seen design thinking help with business growth?
Karen Baker:
You know, there are a couple. One I wasn’t involved with, but I’ll still mention it. The Smithsonian actually used design thinking. And they use it with their team in order to create better opportunities in programming. And then that’s how I’ve used it, particularly with nonprofit organizations, as an opportunity to research and strategize before you just go putting a program into your organization that also then goes into the community as well. I think Local First was a good opportunity for me to do that over the four years of continuing to create something new. You know? Like, what is the need? And then let’s look at why there’s a need, and then let’s come up with a program that’s gonna fulfill that gap that’s gonna give people what they need. You know? Then the business side, you know, an opportunity to do it in banking, which was really exciting, you know, to meet with a marketing director, to meet with the person who’s responsible for banking in the community, and get their feedback.
Karen Baker:
And out of that came a new banking program.
Amy Vaughan:
Wow.
Karen Baker:
So it was a new banking program for start ups that didn’t exist before, and we made some tweaks to it to ensure that we could, again, get more people into the institution as well. But that was designed. We went through that entire process, you know, of mapping, journey mapping, empathy, you know, talking through interviews, all of that stuff to create a banking program. And those are the things that people don’t know are happening when you do design on design thinking in particular.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Let’s pause for that to kind of get to that because I think, you know, most of our members and listeners are pretty astute in, like, the space of digital advertising, marketing, design. But I just also realized that, like, I was probably six years into my career in an agency before I even heard the term design thinking.
Karen Baker:
Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
And so I wanna remind our live listeners, you all can jump into the chat, ask questions if you have them. We’d love to hear them. But I wanna back up for a second for those of our listeners who maybe don’t know. We talked about design being the end product. How would you define design thinking? Because you alluded to some steps there, but how do we paint that picture for our listening audience?
Karen Baker:
Yeah. That’s a great question, and a good thing to actually speak about because people have taken design thinking as a methodology, first of all, so people are clear. It’s a methodology because I’ve had people ask, you know, well, what does it do? Is it a practice, or is it a theory? It’s not a theory. Right. It’s a methodology. Yeah. So the methodology is birthed out of the design council in The UK. So they use what it’s like a five diamond system.
Karen Baker:
And so there’s a process you go through with ideation, visualization. You go through planning, implementation, and execution. So there’s some things that are very similar. So people look at agile as one. However, design thinking is way ahead and came before that. And so that is the process that you go through when you’re bringing a product, a program, a business that you’re designing into existence. Those are the things that you go through to get there. So those are the methodology, practices that you use.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. That’s great. Yes. I recall when I learned about it, it was from a woman who had interned and then gotten hired into our agency.
Karen Baker:
Okay.
Amy Vaughan:
And she kind of took us through those steps, and we did a practice of, like I think it was, building and making, like, a little purse out of paper. I mean, we’re trying to solve the problem, and it was such a great kind of contextual and hands-on way for us to learn. It has always stayed with me. And then I am super proud. I gotta give her a shout out in case she’s listening. Caitlin ended up now she’s at IDEO, which is, like, known for their design thinking. Right?
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
I’m so proud of her and the work she’s done. So, anyhow, yeah, another great company to follow if you’re interested in, like, the design thinking and design methodology.
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
So you have applied this across corporate giants to nonprofit organizations, so everyone can benefit from this. Yes. How does your approach to design driven changes shift between these different environments? Do they change, or do you modify them based on whoever you’re consulting for?
Karen Baker:
That’s a great question. And I’ll go back to when you said the problem was solved. That’s the purpose of design thinking is about problem solving. You go in, it’s how complex the problem is, and I think that answers your question. It really depends on how complex it is as to if there’s any pieces within the methodology that we may not have to spend as much time in is what happens. So, you know, if you’re talking about health equity, you know, the work that we did with the American Diabetes Association when I was at Boathouse, that was complex. Yeah. You know, when we’re talking about looking at the mindset of those who are people living with type two diabetes and why they’re not talking to their families or why they’re not getting the patient education that they need.
Karen Baker:
Those are really complex problems. Yeah. So we were in research for months, you know, talking to people, going through medical conferences, trying to make sure that we fully understood enough before we even got into the space of designing anything. You know, we were in that particular area of research, which is again part of design thinking. Yes. So it really depends on how complex the problem is as to how much you spend in each step, when you’re looking at design as well too, because you wanna be able to measure it. You wanna know that there’s great outcomes, in anything that you do with design. It’s a good design.
Amy Vaughan:
Good design. No. Exactly. Yeah. Just thoughtful, intentional, purposeful. I think that’s what I’ve always loved about our industry and what we do is, like, I’ve I’ve always been creative, but I love using my creativity to solve problems.
Karen Baker:
Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
I wish I could just make art for the sake of art and feel satisfied. And sometimes I do, but it’s, like, more so. I just really love being creative and solving problems, and that’s, I think, what I’ve always loved about design thinking as well. You know, for a lot of our members within the Together Digital organization, a lot of them are working in educating and really fighting for, the ability to elevate creative thinking within their organizations
Karen Baker:
Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
Especially if maybe they’re in house and not within an agency or serving clients that are not, you know, a creative type of company. What are some strategies that you found most effective when advocating for a design seat when it comes to the strategy?
Karen Baker:
Yeah. The biggest thing is advocating to have a seat at that table.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Karen Baker:
Because often you don’t have a seat at the table. I think I’ve found more designers in my career that don’t have a seat at the table from the beginning. Yeah. Everything is brought to them after decisions are made, and they have thoughts. Yeah. Right? They have expertise. Some things that are decided in the strategy phase won’t work. Yeah. When you try to be in a planning through execution time frame.
Karen Baker:
So even when you’re in the visualization standpoint, it’s an opportunity to have designers at the table, bringing that level of what you just spoke about creativity Yep. To the conversation, to say, this is what I could bring, and this is what would be even better than what we have. Now you gotta have diverse voices, and designers at the table really bring a diverse voice as well too. So lobby for a seat at that table
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Karen Baker:
To make sure that you can bring in your expertise. And you get a chance to hear firsthand why decisions were made.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
Because when you get it at the end, you don’t even know why decisions were made. You’re just following suit. You know?
Amy Vaughan:
Yep. We aren’t just here to make things look pretty, folks.
Karen Baker:
Not at all. Don’t say that.
Amy Vaughan:
Spend just that.
Karen Baker:
Yeah. I always say that. Stop looking at designers only to make things look good.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Karen Baker:
You know, at the end, yeah, that’s a part of it. Sure. Absolutely. But it is not the only. You know? The level of research that a designer has to do, there’s quite a bit of work. Even if they’re in this graphic designer Yep. Even if they are an artist Mhmm. They still have to do a level of research.
Karen Baker:
Creative people have to do a level of research to bring that work to you as well. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
And there’s nothing better than the two things coming together of something that is beautifully designed and beautifully functional.
Karen Baker:
That’s right.
Amy Vaughan:
Right?
Karen Baker:
That’s right.
Amy Vaughan:
It is the best feeling, and I think that’s what I enjoyed so much about going through the industrial design portion of the schools we talked about.
Karen Baker:
Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
Because it was that. It was that functionality meets beauty, and it was just like, it feels so genius. It’s the same thing when I go to, like, planned cities or lay like, neighborhoods that are just intentionally laid out. It’s like the aesthetic is there, but then also the ease and flow of use is there. And it’s so critical in what we’re building and creating across the board. So I love it. I love it.
Karen Baker:
And I love industrial design. I know. Right?
Amy Vaughan:
I am the same in architecture and all that stuff. I mean, it’s just Yeah. It really, really adds to, I think, our quality of life.
Karen Baker:
Correct. Correct.
Amy Vaughan:
And we do take it for granted.
Karen Baker:
We do take it for granted. Absolutely.
Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely. We need our designers at the table. I love that advice. That’s good advice. So bring them. If you’re not the designer yourself, bring a designer with you early in the show.
Karen Baker:
Exactly. Yeah. Open the door to them. Mhmm. You know? If you come into a company and you find that they are not part of that conversation Yeah. You know, have a conversation about opening them to be part of that table, you know? And it’s even a great experience. Yes.
Karen Baker:
Absolutely. You know? Absolutely. To be part of those conversations for them, you know, it’s also when you talk about a cultural belonging.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
You know? They feel like they belong and they’re not separated from this leadership team. Yeah. That they’re inclusive Mhmm. In that leadership team. I think that’s also very important.
Amy Vaughan:
Agreed. I don’t think everybody wants to just be the hands. Correct. Some people do. Don’t get me wrong. I’ve got people I’ve worked with people that are like, just give me the thing and let me do it. Yeah. But for the most part, yeah, if you really wanna bring people along on the journey of what it is that you’re trying to build and create, like, you have to involve them.
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
You know? Yeah. They need to be bought in too, and then they will put in their best effort as well.
Karen Baker:
Correct. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Amy Vaughan:
So I’m curious. What has either who or what has been some influences for you and how you approach design leadership?
Karen Baker:
Well, that’s a great question. I think that a couple I’ll say a couple people probably come to mind more than anything. One is a former adviser of mine, doctor Leslie Noel. She’s now a dean at, in Toronto. Awesome. Has always just led with truth.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Karen Baker:
She’s always been a designer that is about inclusivity. She’s always big on observation and listening. You know? And so that type of leadership mirrors my leadership, you know, as well. And then has been very instrumental, you know, in my career as well, too, elevating my thinking around design, particularly design research, which is what I was getting my doctorate in. And so those, you know, that is just a good model, you know, to follow. I do like IDL.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Is that right?
Karen Baker:
I just finished a class with them last night as a matter of fact. Oh, that’s so awesome. Yeah. So I’ve taken two classes with them, and they always go on saying, oh, I know this, but then I learn so much more. Right. You know? So I really think that they have a really good model. And, you know, it has been and and I’ll be honest, it’s been debate, you know, particularly in pedagogy, let me say that, about how much they have done or what they bring, but really who they hire, let me say that, to instruct these classes or create these levels of this curriculum has been good for me. And I’ve been in this for a while, and I still come out learning more, you know.
Karen Baker:
So I just think they are really a great model for education.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
Particularly when you just need a little bit, you know, not necessarily a whole degree, but you need just a little bit to keep you kinda knowing what’s going on with the industry, staying relevant to the marketplace.
Amy Vaughan:
Definitely.
Karen Baker:
I think that it’s extremely, you know, extremely important as well. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. You can tell that they live and breathe it, for sure. They have got such a passion for it. And so, yeah, I love that they’re constantly, like, pushing design education out there. So for those of you who are interested in getting down that rabbit hole, I do recommend and would recommend that. Correct. I think I was just so funny. I had this flash at this moment.
Amy Vaughan:
Because it’s not often. This is what I love about, like, podcasting is I get to sit and, like, focus on just one topic for about an hour. And it’s just one of those things where it’s, like, it’s funny all the things that come to your mind because how often do I get to just sit and talk about Yeah. And think about design. Yeah. And it’s so good. And I realized now I was really fortunate while I was going to school in Chicago. I was working full time, and I was going to go to school at night.
Amy Vaughan:
And during the day, I worked for a graphic design firm.
Karen Baker:
Okay.
Amy Vaughan:
And he went to, like, the Institute of Design, in, like, near Chicago, like, studied Bauhaus. So, like, very kind of, like, old, old school, like, design. And it really, really influenced me early on even though I didn’t end up going in like, I actually chose copywriting versus design.
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Okay. Because I was like, I just don’t wanna at the time, I’m dating myself, it was like you had to have a big tower and a huge screen, and I couldn’t just go anywhere. But I was like, I take my laptop and go right across the street at even Marcus, which I would do. Great place to write when you’re talking to consumers.
Karen Baker:
Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
Sit there at the cafe and do my writing. But, yeah, I have always had such a tremendous respect for design and designers and, you know, folks like you and then my old boss that I worked with just constantly, like, living and breathing it and sharing their knowledge in it. It was just their passion for it.
Karen Baker:
Right.
Amy Vaughan:
Exactly. An impact, and I love getting back into it.
Karen Baker:
Yeah. This is good. And, hey. I’m you know, I could talk about it all day. But, you know, I heard you say about copywriting, oh my goodness. Over the last three years, the value of a copywriter is a value.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm. Yeah.
Karen Baker:
You know? I think because I took a class with IDEO, the storytelling for influence, and it was great. Absolutely. And I say that because it pushed me to go beyond just the words, if that makes sense to anyone.
Karen Baker:
You know what I’m saying? Does. And as a copywriter, you have this ability to just imagine. Yeah. You know? And bring words to a page Mhmm. That people like anything, they’re gonna critique, but you have the ability to bring it to the page and people to be like, wowed or didn’t think of that, you know, or put them in a world that they never imagined they could be put into. You know what I’m saying? So
Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely.
Karen Baker:
You know, they’re just that profession is very essential regardless of how fast technology moves.
Amy Vaughan:
Agree.
Karen Baker:
We need the human body.
Amy Vaughan:
Oh my gosh. Absolutely. Absolutely. I am right there with you. I loved it. I really enjoyed it, and you’re right. You get that chance to really impact people in such a quick way. And I’m pretty sure, like, I still have, like, some of my, like, five favorite headlines.
Amy Vaughan:
It is, like, always at the top of my head that I will forever be proud of. And it’s just, like, four or five words, but those four or five words, like, carried entire campaigns and compelled people to take action and do things. And I’m like, you did that with just a couple words. Yeah.
Karen Baker:
That’s something and that’s powerful.
Amy Vaughan:
It really is. It really is. And so, yeah, I agree with you. AI is a tool we’re always talking about here at Together Digital. We’re not shying away from it. Right.
Amy Vaughan:
We are learning how to embrace it and use it to our benefit. And that’s the thing. It’s like, you know, with all of this stuff, I think, you know, even in the discussion of AI for, like, photography and videography, because I have friends in all of those areas.
Karen Baker:
Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
And our conversation has been the people who will succeed and get through this moment in time are the ones that learn how to harness and embrace it. Because at the end of the day, only good copywriters know good copy. I’m sorry. That’s just the way it is.
Karen Baker:
That is very true.
Amy Vaughan:
Great designers know a good design when they see it.
Karen Baker:
Correct.
Amy Vaughan:
So there’s a gentleman I know, Terry. I can’t think of his last name right now, but he’s an amazing thirty plus year veteran of food photography.
Karen Baker:
Okay.
Amy Vaughan:
And he has truly embraced AI. And his work, Karen Mhmm. Would challenge anybody to try to guess what is AI and what is not with him. But it’s because he knows, like, intimately Mhmm. What food photography is, what good lighting, set, prop, like, all of the details of even how, like, certain elements and pieces of food like, I think he was looking at something once, and he’s like, cheese wouldn’t melt that way. And I was like, what? How do you know cheese won’t melt that way, Terry? He said, because I looked at enough melted cheese in thirty years to know that it wouldn’t be like, that’s, like, not the way that it would look. That’s not right. I know that that’s AI.
Amy Vaughan:
Wow. And so we still need experts in these areas to really kind of keep that work elevated. Correct. So yeah. Yeah.
Karen Baker:
And he’d have to feed that to AI. It wouldn’t know. You know what I’m saying? It would n’t have lived experiences.
Amy Vaughan:
No. Absolutely.
Karen Baker:
You know what I’m saying? We’re feeding it lived experience. Mhmm. You know?
Amy Vaughan:
It needs us.
Karen Baker:
Absolutely. So even when you go back to the research, that’s research, him knowing that it would melt that way. Right? So somebody has to humanly be able to position themselves, particularly in an industry like that, food. Yeah. You know? Because we know food is an experience.
Karen Baker:
You know what I’m saying? It is something that we embody. We have to take part in Yeah. You know, in order to do so. So you turn around and move into the visual aspect of that. If I look at it from this side, I need to be able to believe it. Meaning, I need to look at it and know, oh, I wanna taste that.
Amy Vaughan:
Right.
Karen Baker:
You know what I’m saying? I want that. You know?
Amy Vaughan:
It’s a tricky one too. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because I also think even just your everyday average consumer, they kind of can look at stuff and then they can look at something and they’ll know.
Karen Baker:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s not fooling us yet. Yeah.
Karen Baker:
Exactly. And, you know, you always say in marketing that, you know, consumers know what they know. You know what I’m saying? They really do. Don’t underestimate No. What they know.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Don’t try to get away with nothing. No.
Karen Baker:
Don’t try. Particularly now. No. Right?
Amy Vaughan:
Oh, so funny. Alright. So let’s talk a little bit about your work with social art and culture.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s definitely, you know, it’s helping create, like, deep understanding, community impact. How do you see design thinking playing a role in creating more purposeful business outcomes? We’ve talked about, like, how it can improve your overall business outcomes and objectives, but what about purpose?
Karen Baker:
No. It’s a great question, and I always appreciate people talking about Social Art and Culture because I founded Social Art and Culture. I love it.
Karen Baker:
So it was you know? And the purpose of its foundation was to fill a gap. So it came about a couple years before I really knew about design thinking, but as soon as I did, social agriculture was the first place I was able to apply it. Because I was able to use the knowledge of how to really design programs that were gonna be impactful. Right? The design programs and the social and culture is based on bringing artists to another level. And how are we gonna be able to do that? You know? How are we gonna be able to make sure we have life changing moments with artists and the communities that they serve? This had to trickle down, you know, as well. So we have spent time, sometimes a year, and I don’t know a lot of nonprofits that spend a year in design before they introduce something to the constituents, the members that they have. But that’s the things we’ve done because of the background that I have. And I’m like, we’re not moving until we know.
Karen Baker:
Yeah. You know? And so sometimes financially, that’s not always the greatest thing. But at the end of it all, it ends up being the greatest thing. Because the joy that we have, you know, as me as a founder, us as a board of directors, and the input that we get from the people that go through not only the programs that touch the things that we do, they bring me to tears. They literally do. And that’s the work that you wanna do. That’s the work you want, that’s a feeling that you wanna get when you bring something to the table that you know again is really good design. So yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s so exciting. Thank you for sharing, and thank you for doing that work too because it is so important, you know, to be bringing up and bringing in, like, the next generation and elevating artists and creativity because I think sometimes it is in a a society that feels very, very focused on results and productivity and, you know, just get it done. get it done fast sort of thing, fast and cheap, that kind of thing.
Karen Baker:
Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
It is so good to kind of get people to slow down and reconnect with that, with their creativity and with design.
Karen Baker:
And when you say that, there’s a process to connect. You know what I’m saying? It makes me think of that when you say it. It’s a process to connect. It’s not quick. No. You, it’s not quick. And sometimes you’re even in a community, meaning you live in it. You know what I’m saying? Culturally, you may be part of it, and there’s still much more to learn.
Karen Baker:
Mhmm. You know? It does not make it so that you already know everything. Mhmm. You still have a lot to learn to truly connect. Because, again, everybody has a different lived experience. Yes. You know? And you wanna know more about that when you’re really trying to design something great. Mhmm.
Karen Baker:
You know? And you may have to, as we say, reiterate, reiterate, reiterate.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
You know? Yeah. Until you get the right thing so that they feel that they are engaged, involved, and it was thought about
Amy Vaughan:
That’s it.
Karen Baker:
Yep. Everything that you did.
Amy Vaughan:
Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. It’s like they almost wanna see themselves, their needs being met within that thing that you’ve created, and so that’s why we connect to it. I love that. That’s such a great thought. Such a great thought. Alright.
Amy Vaughan:
What so looking at your year career Mhmm. What is a commonly held belief about design and business that you have that you’ve completely changed your mind about kind of from where you started to where you are now?
Karen Baker:
Oh, that’s a great one. Good questions, Amy. Thanks. I think for me, what has probably changed is research has to be done. I am a strong strategist. Absolutely. You know, I think I came into design really being strongest in design strategy. Mhmm.
Karen Baker:
And once I spent the time in research, you know, sitting out at a park observing people in order to design something, you know, sitting at a food hall to design, you know, then you’re like, wow, You know? You’re like, and that is the part now for me in business can’t be missed.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
You know? Can’t be skipped over.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Karen Baker:
You know? Has to be put into the process. Has to be financially put in as a line item. You know? All of that stuff has to occur for research. So that’s another area where you can sometimes not have a researcher at the table too. Mhmm. You know, sometimes they are brought in way too late. Yeah. And they’re trying to move around what is happening.
Karen Baker:
Mhmm. You know, trying to adjust and trying to find information because the topic and the question has already been formed. Yeah. You know? So research is it, it has to be part of everything. That is the shift that’s probably happened with you over the last three years.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. No. I would agree. And then, the amount of, you know, data that we have at our fingertips that we can generate and create
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
I would say of all the things, like, that’s one of the things I appreciate AI for is helping me to analyze all of that data.
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
You know, to help me see insights and opportunities that maybe I couldn’t pick up with my own, like, two little human eyes and brain. Sure. You know? Sure. And, yeah, and I love what you said about that creative and strategy too. I thought it was interesting. When I first started out in the industry, somebody came up to me and said, you should work as a strategic planner. You should be in strategy, not copywriting. And I’m like, aren’t they kinda wanting the same way?
Karen Baker:
Is strategy in that thing.
Amy Vaughan:
There’s so much I’m like, why do we separate these things? Like, if I am in an industry where I’m writing to solve a problem, I think I need to be a little bit of a strategic writer personally.
Karen Baker:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
I think a lot of us creatives get thrown into that bank of, like, oh, they’re just creatives. You know? They’re over there.
Karen Baker:
Yeah. And that just gets put on it too. That just, yeah, Just put on it too.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. You’re so right. That modifier that really minimizes their role. And so, yeah, I do love to see now that there are more, like, creative strategists, and it’s like strategy is a part of what you’re looking for when you’re hopefully looking for content creators. If not, you should be.
Karen Baker:
That’s right. You know? Add it in because you see entitled, like, content strategist Uh-huh. You know, now that you didn’t see before. So when someone saying that to you just was behind the curve, they, you know, needed to catch up a little bit, because it really is part of the thinking process, that creative thinking process. Well, that goes into content, goes into writing. It is part of the process.
Amy Vaughan:
It absolutely is. I love it. Alright. So you’ve successfully navigated several industry transitions, which is amazing. And I think sometimes people feel that that’s an impossible thing to do, which clearly it’s not because you’ve done it. What role has design thinking played in helping organizations and actually, not the organizations, you stay resilient during change?
Karen Baker:
Oh, wow. You know, I think that it is a tool in my tool belt that will never go away. Right? So I have always been one to educate myself on skills that will be transferable across industries. Right? And it’s funny because sometimes people will say to me, Oh, it seems like you’ve done a little bit of everything. No. I haven’t. I’ve just worked in different industries, you know? And I view that as value because, you know, I can go into multiple industries and not lose my skills, right, and bring my skills as an addition to an organization or a client as a result of being able to do multifaceted in that. It’s just the industries have changed.
Karen Baker:
I’ve done health care. I’ve done entertainment. I’ve done you know what I’m saying? Climate, but it’s never changed. It hasn’t been design thinking, design research, or strategy. All of those things are things that are transferable skills.
Amy Vaughan:
Yep.
Karen Baker:
You know? They just move across industries. So that has been extremely helpful to me, and I’ve been purposeful in going after degrees that I know are going to go across multiple industries.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. That’s so smart. It’s such a smart way to work because at the end of the day, we’ve said this so many times on this podcast, is that Mhmm. No career is linear, and no one job is forever. And then we have a lot of women who are being impacted right now by layoffs.
Karen Baker:
Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
And they just sit back and they think, oh, I’ve done and been all these things, but what does it all mean? They don’t often think about what’s the narrative. Yeah. What are the transferable skills?
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
So that I can champion myself and position myself. It’s like they kinda just go in, I don’t know, like, just almost shying away from instead of owning the power and the experience that they have. So I agree with you. I think look for those kind of common through lines for you. Obviously, design thinking Mhmm. Continuing your education in that space, always learning and growing in that space. Yeah. The more types of industry experience you’ve acquired, gosh, how much better are you now? Because then all of a sudden, like, you can especially as a creative strategist too, which I imagine that you very
Karen Baker:
Which I imagine that you very much are.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. You can see, like, potential commonalities where it’s like, okay. Yeah. I’m over here in health care.
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
And they have these systems, but also in banking
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
There’s, like, this thing from health care that I can take and actually apply that’s working well over here in banking. And it’s like, without that
Karen Baker:
Absolutely.
Amy Vaughan:
You don’t have that experience to bring. So it’s like, why wouldn’t you want to hire somebody that has cross industry experience? So people who are hiring, I’m talking to you too.
Karen Baker:
That’s right.
Amy Vaughan:
Don’t minimize a person, especially women, please, just because they have a diverse experience and background. Look at it. Look at the whole.
Karen Baker:
And then some of the labels. You know what I’m saying? Don’t label it as, okay, well, you don’t know only this, you know? Be glad for that because it does. It has also been helpful in lead generation and business development.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Karen Baker:
You know? Because you’ve been able to see the crossover between the two and where you can apply some things even when you’re pitching Yeah. You know, a client in that particular way. Because, again, if say you’ve been in health care for thirty five years and you’ve only been absorbed in that, and someone comes to you and says, well, let’s cross over the difference of the energy or climate and how that’s impacting your health care, which is starting to happen, Ashley. Yes. Right? That’s starting to happen like, oh, we can’t stand over here. You stand over here. We gotta stand together. It took someone to see that
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Karen Baker:
And try to take these two industries and say, we need to start working together and not be these stand alone types of things. So don’t do that to people Right.
Karen Baker:
You know,as well as a stand particularly with, like you said, so many people transitioning, not by choice.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I love it. Yeah. Being fresh eyeballs. I always loved being the new kid at my company. I’d be like, I don’t know anything.
Amy Vaughan:
So I’m just gonna come up with some random ideas, and I’m gonna ask lots of questions. But that should be us all the time. Right?
Karen Baker:
Yeah. We hope so. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. Alright. So for leaders who are just beginning to explore design thinking as a growth strategy, what’s one unexpected place they should start looking for opportunities to apply this?
Karen Baker:
Well, that’s a great one. So, there are a couple probably institutions that have been around for quite some time. Design Management Institute would be one. I would say they’ve celebrated fifty years this year.
Amy Vaughan:
Nice.
Karen Baker:
Would be a really good one to look at. Like I said, the Design Council in The UK would be good, even if you live in The States, United States. You still should look at them, as another means of doing that. And then there are if you’re in the Washington, DC area, there’s something called Design Thinking DC.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Karen Baker:
And they do, you know, workshops, and all of them are interactive and engaging. Like, they put a topic out and you discuss that topic. You work on that topic. Oh, okay. Which is a good real time experience for people as well too. So, you know, I think there’s more of that out there like that, where people are doing meetup type of things to get together. Because what I realized coming into this community, it’s a big community. Yeah.
Karen Baker:
You know, it really is a big community because people sit in different spaces within design, you know? And again, if you’re about solving problems and particularly, like I said, the more complex they are, you understand that you need to gather around the community. Most times you don’t want a designer who designs in the silos. No. You know? You don’t want that because that’s not its purpose. You know? Its purpose is for you to move further out, you know, and particularly how you’re gonna research, how you’re gonna strategize, how you’re gonna talk to people. That’s a big part of it. So you don’t really want a designer that just sits in silos and doesn’t move around and have some level of community.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Community is such an important part of that. It keeps you connected to those who are passionate about what you’re passionate about.
Karen Baker:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
You know? It is kind of it doesn’t it’s not like especially if it’s, like, a healthy community, it’s not about, you know, going over one or the other. It’s not about competing. It’s really about that collective knowledge and learning Mhmm. That really does make, like, a huge difference in sort of your own ability to just even wanna show up and, like, make things happen.
Karen Baker:
Right.
Amy Vaughan:
So yeah.
Karen Baker:
Yeah. Community over competition. Yes. Always.
Amy Vaughan:
Every time. Every time. Every time. No. I love that. And that’s definitely kinda our motto here too. Because, again, I think it is just one of those things when you are sharing it passionately versus competitively.
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s just so different. You know? And so it’s like people, like, how do you stay informed? And, you know, some people will list I think I love that you said community because some people will list, like, publications, magazines, and newsletters, but all of that is in isolation, and then there’s no commentary. There’s no Mhmm. Back and forth conversation versus when you’re in community, you actually get to sit and have the conversation and maybe just critically think about it a little more critically because you’re discussing it versus just taking it in and then moving on to your next thing. So outside of just the sheer motivation factor
Karen Baker:
Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
You know, of sharing passion with people about certain things and nerding out like we did here on Design today. You know? It just makes it such a different approach to that consistent learning. And I think we don’t necessarily always think of community as the answer for that, and it’s just like, it’s the answer to so much. So I love that you’ve mentioned, like, the DC community as well. I know we’ve got a few members actually that reside in the DC area.
Karen Baker:
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. For sure.
Amy Vaughan:
They’ll check it out.
Karen Baker:
Another one would be the Design Justice Network. Okay. Most people in the Design Justice Network are using design for some social cause. Okay. I love that. Yeah. They created this network. They started in 2015, formalized it in 2020, and they set their own 10 principles Mhmm.
Karen Baker:
Around it as well. I’ve been a member for about three years now. Uh-huh. But you talk about robust conversation, oh, for sure. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Definitely do. One out. I mean, they really talk about and, again, the community supports one another.
Karen Baker:
So yeah. There’s always job opportunities that are popping up. They’re like, oh, I’m only putting this here. You know? And because I know that this community gets it. You know? I’ve seen that many times in that language. You know? I’m putting it here because I know this community gets it. You’re gonna understand. Exactly.
Karen Baker:
And we won’t have to go through this process to understand it because you’ll be coming from this particular community. So the Design Justice Network is a really, really great network. I instantly went into it. I felt like they were holding space for me.
Amy Vaughan:
Oh, that’s so good. That is so good. Yeah. Absolutely. I’m gonna check it out. I’ve written it down. I’m sure some folks here will too. Because it just feels like too our responsibility.
Amy Vaughan:
Right? When you have a gift like this with the ability to either storytelling or do great design work
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
And some of us do feel like we have jobs that don’t satisfy a lot of purpose, and that’s okay because sometimes you just gotta work for a paycheck.
Karen Baker:
That’s right.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s right. So, yeah, that’s where you could probably go to try to find an opportunity to, you know, give yourself a sense of purpose. And I do feel like we have a little bit of a responsibility to sort of take those gifts and, you know, give them back.
Karen Baker:
That’s right. That’s right. It’s paying forward, it still exists. Yeah. We still have to pay it forward.
Amy Vaughan:
Definitely. Alright. My last question that I have for you before we go into the power round, and then I’ll also check with our live listening audience to see if they have any questions. Okay. We’ve talked a little bit already about creative technology and how it’s continuing to evolve. How do you see the relationship between design thinking, and business strategy evolving in the next few years?
Karen Baker:
Oh, I think the biggest thing is, yeah, technology is gonna play a big part in it. It really is. People are going to have to if they’re resistant to it, and I’ve written about this many times, they’re gonna need to start to embrace this, how you embrace it. Right? So it it there’s gonna be a cost factor, to it as well because these tools, some of them are in beta
Amy Vaughan:
Yep.
Karen Baker:
You know, right now and and willing to do a little more negotiation with price. Mhmm. Some of them are moving so fast. You’re gonna have to figure out how to get the cost paid in because the consumer, and we are consumers of it, are gonna latch on so fast that they’re not gonna have to negotiate.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Karen Baker:
So I think technology is going to be a big part of business, for those who may be smaller at that point, not the big corporations. You know? They’re going to have to look at even if they don’t have a chief technology officer, they’re gonna have to have somebody in place to understand and keep up with what’s going on, so that they’re able to not get left behind. Because I think that the digital divide is gonna widen.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
It is not just gonna widen amongst people in their home.
Amy Vaughan:
Sure.
Karen Baker:
It’s gonna widen within business and small businesses in particular Mhmm. And solo entrepreneurs who don’t necessarily have the revenue, sometimes not the education as well Sure. Yeah. To be prepared to set a business up structurally
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
To be ready for the level of technology that is going it’s just gonna move rapidly.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. You are so right, Karen. It’s such a small business advantage. So for those of you who do run and own and operate small businesses Mhmm. Like, if you can be an early adopter, be an early adopter. It’s gonna let you one person, three people, however many. You’ve got to work like five, ten people. And like you said, these behemoth companies that, you know, again, have a lot more not a lot more at stake, but I guess, like, they have a lot more rigor and, like, bureaucracy and layers and legal that is really holding them back from being able to jump on it and, like, leverage it. So right. You are so right. And it’s funny that this is coming up because it’s come up so often lately. I just launched a coaching practice. Mhmm. And we’ve gone to coaching.com.
Amy Vaughan:
Thanks. And I was it was all about authentic leadership, finding your authentic leadership voice. I wanna help these women who are
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
If you’re looking a little dead in the eyes to just really step into their own form of executive presence. Yeah. And, but also in that, talking to some of my small business owner friends being in digital and an early adopter for a lot of technologies like automation and AI and other back end platforms Yeah. They’re all like, you need to add this to your coaching, like, offerings. And I was like, I would love to because it is like rocket fuel for a business. We very much so. I can automate and make very daunting tasks for my friends who own, like, catering businesses, waxing companies, roofing companies, like Mhmm. Be able to operate, like, they’re ten years ahead of things with just a little bit of tech.
Amy Vaughan:
So I’m right. Yeah. That was a great answer, Karen. I can’t, I can’t, I could not agree enough with you.
Karen Baker:
No. I appreciate that. I really do because I’m like, you know, you could easily have fear.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Karen Baker:
You know what I’m saying? Mhmm. The not easy part is you actually leap it in. You know what I’m saying? And and and actually embracing it and understanding how it benefits your business. You know? How do you as a leader begin to grow or scale depending on what point you’re at your business as a result of technology?
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
A lot of times we’re looking at it from the side of, okay. How do we gain more money, or how do we get more clients, or but technology is gonna be like that other part Yep. Of business as we move forward. I mean, it is now. It’s just like it is. I don’t think enough conversations are being had about it. So I appreciate the question. I just don’t think enough conversation to be had about, particularly, again, in small businesses, like, how are we equipping
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
Small businesses with technology strategies Yeah. So that they can be around much longer.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
You know? And Exactly. And because we just cut a lot of jobs at the small business administration Yep. And the IRS just today cut their small businesses, so entrepreneur people, you know, who’s gonna help us?
Amy Vaughan:
We need it.
Karen Baker:
We need it more than ever. Yeah. So add it to your coaching breakfast.
Amy Vaughan:
I will. Yes, ma’am. I will. Well and it’s like small businesses, I think I can’t remember the exact stat. They create over 50% of the jobs in the country. Am I right? Yeah. Like, we can’t afford to lose them.
Karen Baker:
And small businesses train. Mhmm. They’re willing to invest. Yeah. In people. They usually hire within the neighborhoods and communities in which they live. Mhmm. You know? This is important.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Agreed. Important. Yeah. Agreed. I love this conversation and our little bonus message here for our small businesses. We love you all.
Karen Baker:
Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
Alright. Well, let’s pivot over into our power round. So these are some fun quick questions. Okay. For us to kind of wrap it up. I’ll keep an eye on the chat. Okay. You all can connect with Karen as well. There’s a LinkedIn link up there for her if you wanna connect.
Karen Baker:
Please do. Always happy to connect.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. And then we’ll jump into these questions before we wrap things up. Alright. What is your go to creative unblocking ritual? When you feel stuck, what do you do?
Karen Baker:
Oh, that’s a good one. I’m a weaver. A lot of people don’t know that.
Amy Vaughan:
Oh, that’s so cool. I love it.
Karen Baker:
I will weave or I’ll pick up some needles, and I’m gonna knit, and I zoned out.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. That is so good. That is so good. Oh, I never could get the hang of knitting. I don’t know why. I got crocheting fine.
Karen Baker:
Okay. Okay.
Amy Vaughan:
Alright. I get it. I don’t know if it’s, like, easier or what or just the way my brain wants to work. But I’ve never tried weaving. That’s awesome. I’ll have to, like, I’ll have to take a look at some of your pieces later.
Karen Baker:
Yes. Yes. I love it.
Amy Vaughan:
That unnecessary creativity is a great, great block. I think, like, adult coloring. I was Oh, yeah. For a while. All that stuff really does kind of help your brain sort of go into a different place.
Karen Baker:
Yeah, you need to. You create people as a creative, and I definitely consider myself that, you need an opportunity to rest your mind.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Karen Baker:
So that you can continue to create. Right. If you’re on autopilot like that, nine times out of 10, you’re really not getting the best out of who you are.
Amy Vaughan:
No. Exactly. Rest is so important. So, again, a big note there too. Those who are on creative teams, fostering creative teams, you know, leading creative teams. Yeah. They need that.
Karen Baker:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. Alright. What’s one unexpected object that inspires your design thinking?
Karen Baker:
Oh, that is a great question. An object. Oh, wow. What comes to mind is a pencil.
Amy Vaughan:
Oh, I love it.
Karen Baker:
I’ve been liking pencils for the last seven months. Yeah. And not in a pen. It does something for me.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s interesting. I love that.
Karen Baker:
It does something for me. And it is not only because the writing makes me remember. Mhmm. Yes. But I think the medium of a pencil allows sketching. Yeah. It allows for just impromptu doodling. You know? So it’s a great question, but it’s the pencil.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. That’s a great answer. Yeah. Well, and then the other thing I like is that I feel like it allows for mistakes.
Karen Baker:
Exactly. So you have to play more. Too, you know? So I get excited to take notes with a pencil and not a pen. It’s been going there for the last seven, eight months. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s so funny. You might have me, you might be another convert right behind you because I have all pens at my desk. Everything’s so permanent. But I love sketching too because that’s another good kind of, like, mind almost mindless creative activity. Right? Like, doodling is actually very good for our brains. So
Karen Baker:
It’s very myself. Very myself.
Amy Vaughan:
This has been so fun, Karen. Alright. I got this one last question, and then we’ll wrap it up if we don’t have anything else from our listening audience. Okay. Cool. Alright. I would love for you to finish the sentence.
Amy Vaughan:
Good design is like good coffee because
Karen Baker:
Good design is like good coffee because it energizes you throughout your day.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. It does. It does. I hope you all move into the rest of the day and the weekend. Just not taking design for granted. Look around. See where you know that you know a little bit more about design thinking, what it is, how it works. Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
You know, Karen’s given us some great tips and resources and places we can go to, like, learn and dig in more. But, yeah, once you kind of unlock the idea of design thinking, it’s kind of hard to put it away because it’s so useful.
Karen Baker:
Very true, Amy. Great point. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely. Alright, Karen. Well, it was so fun talking to you. I’m looking forward to your master class that we’ve got coming up. We’ll be sure to share that information in our Slack to our members. Everyone, thank you all so much for joining us today. It’s been an absolute pleasure. It’s always a good way to end the week when we do this.
Amy Vaughan:
So thank you so much for taking the time to tune in, and we hope to see you all next week. Until then, keep asking, keep giving, and keep growing.
Karen Baker:
Have a good one.
