The ROI of Investing in Women Leaders

Amy Vaughan:
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly Power Lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughan and I am the owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who choose to share their knowledge, power and connections. You can join the movement@togetherindigital.com as many of us within the Together Digital community know strong women and need a strong support system. And today we are going to be exploring exactly what it means for leadership success. I am thrilled to welcome Shauna Moran, leadership strategist, Executive coach, and the founder of the Impact Amplification Program and Leadership Systems Partnership. Shanna is a women’s leadership coach, fractional organizational strategist, partner or strategy partner, burnout prevention expert who helps high performing women and scaling organizations build real leadership capacity. Through her acclaimed programs.

Amy Vaughan:
She empowers women from director to C suite to lead with more clarity, presence and ease. And in today’s conversation, we are going to be diving into the critical question, which is what is the real ROI of investing in women leaders? So whether you’re leading a team, advocating for yourself or building a support system in your organization, Shauna is going to share with us the insights on how to make the business case for supporting women leaders. The women. Let’s try that again. It’s Friday. Shauna will share the insights on how to make a business case for the support women leaders deserve and need to thrive. So welcome to the Power Lounge. Shauna, thanks for joining us today.

Shauna Moran:
Thank you for having me, Amy. I’m so happy to be here with you.

Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely. And hello to all of our wonderful live listeners. We are always happy to have you here with us. If you have any other questions outside of what I’m asking Shauna today, we want you to chime in. A part of Together Digital is all about ask, give, grow. So we love to hear your questions to make sure that we’re getting the most out of our time with Shauna today. But while we’re kind of getting all warmed up and again listeners, you can put those questions in the chat. Let’s start with the business case, Shauna.

Amy Vaughan:
When organizations hesitate to invest in women’s leadership development, which, let me be honest, I’m not stating anything that’s not obvious, it’s happening, right? There’s a significant DE investment in diversity, equity and inclusion. There’s a significant de-investment because what we’re dealing with in the economy, in professional development and employee development, are a couple things. But what else do you feel like is holding them back and what are they missing out on?

Shauna Moran:
For sure. You know, organizations often see that developing, investing in our people as more of a nice to have until they actually witness the benefit and the results of investing in people, investing in coaching in particular women as well. So you know, oftentimes when companies actually see the ripple impact of what are the outcomes when we invest in our people and those outcomes look different across the organization. You know, profitability Research shows us that organizations with 30% or more female executives experience a 21% increase of profitability. I think it was McKinsey that shared that. So there’s profitability there. Research also shows us that when we have more female executives on our leadership teams, we have an approximate 19% increase in innovation across our organizations. And then also the retention, you know, the retention across organizations.

Shauna Moran:
Research shows us when we have more women in leadership positions, we retain our employees longer and our best performing employees. And also the impact of retaining those high performing leaders. When we invest into supporting leaders, we’re retaining them for the long term. And I see this time and time again with my program, Amy. You know, I am creating the space and the support and the tools for leaders not just to survive but to actually thrive. And that results in them staying with their organizations and not just staying there, but actually getting promoted time and time again. I have an 85% promotion rate for the women in my program. The companies that sponsor women leaders into my program see a 95% retention rate with those women with their companies.

Shauna Moran:
So you know, it’s going beyond that. This is nice to have. It’s something fluffy. It’s far beyond that. And I often talk to organizations who lose high performing female leaders and say, what’s the cost of that? What’s the financial cost of having to replace a high performing female leader? Likely, you know, that’s going to be 200,000 plus. And if they’ve been there for a while, how much knowledge, what’s the relationship? What’s the impact of trust on the rest of the team? Sometimes data doesn’t show that, but it’s felt. So you know, this is, this is half of the work I do. Yes, half the work is supporting the women, but the other half is advocating for why there’s a really strong business case to invest in high performing female talent.

Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, I love it. And I am so in agreement with you that I had jotted down institutional knowledge. I mean that information, that insight being lost, you can’t quantify that. But the quality of that is so essential. In culture, in an era when we’re struggling to get people to come back to the office, you know, to choose work as the priority after we’ve all gone through this crazy Covid life crisis right where we’re facing our mortality and our values and our priorities are changing. You know, we’re, I think our workforce has evolved in a lot of ways which kind of scare a lot of companies and they’re trying to cling to certain things and it’s like. But why is it when , like you’re saying, if you are working on retention and retention and retaining your top talent, that stability has such a trickle down effect, especially when you’re talking about people that are in the C suite. So yeah, I love it.

Amy Vaughan:
I love it.

Shauna Moran:
Absolutely. And, and you know, the women that I’m fortunate to work with and support, they’re influencing and impacting the system in bigger ways than most founders or CEOs. And sometimes they are the CEOs themselves, of course, but you know, they’re influencing systems in completely different ways. They are attuned to the systemic needs of their organizations. They are showing up with a deeper level of awareness as to the nervous system of a team, as to the overall health of an organization. And they are often doing that invisible work. Yeah, coaching work, that facilitation work that’s often missed by so many others. So it’s to give, and this is what I pride myself on, is giving women in those positions that have those, that strength and those skills to actually be able to take that to the next level.

Shauna Moran:
So yeah, those ripple impacts 100%.

Amy Vaughan:
That leads so beautifully into my next question too, Shauna. Like you’re working with women from director to C suite level, like what changes or what sometimes needs to change and the type of support that women need as they move up the leadership ladder.

Shauna Moran:
Yeah, it’s really interesting, Amy, because there’s. I’ll talk about the commonalities as well, regardless of level of leadership. And I think, you know, regardless of levels of leadership, years of experience, industry, there’s a couple of things that are always the same. Number one, honing leadership skills. You know, as our environments become more complex as we’re going through, you know, banking environments right now, brittle, anxious, non linear, you know, things are changing all of the time. We’re in constant flux. Constant change. To develop and hone leadership skills is something that is constantly needed.

Shauna Moran:
There’s always an opportunity there. New frameworks, new tools, new processes. Taking our delegation skills to the next level. Being able to facilitate at the next level you know, these are the skills that, you know, regardless of our, our level or how many years of experience, it’s so important. And I often find that women in leadership often learn by experimentation. You know, oftentimes there isn’t any formalized frameworks or tools that they really go through. So, you know, when I provide them with these tools and work with them and I actually build tools depending on what my clients need, it’s nearly like, you know, taking a big, massive deep breath for the first time. You know, it’s oh, I don’t have to waste this time experimenting.

Shauna Moran:
Here’s, you know, a blueprint of how I can actually do it. Here’s how I can develop my influencing skills. Here’s how I can understand how to coach my team members to come up with more solutions rather than problems. So the skills are important. What’s also important at the same time is, you know, regardless of the level of leadership, I find the women that I work with, they’re always taking on more, more responsibility. And because they’re so great, because they’re such high performers, of course they’re taking on more because they’re growth orientated and they’re driven and they’re ambitious. But how do we not fall into what I call the leadership constriction trap, which is where we take on more responsibility and instead of taking on more impact, we take on more stress, we take on more overwhelm and we get further into the weeds instead of zoomed out at the whole bigger picture and the strategy and where we really bring the most impact. So that’s a cycle that happens every time we get promoted, every time we take on more.

Shauna Moran:
So we have to look strategically at where we are spending our time, what’s our zone of genius? Those tasks that light us up and that produce the highest roi? What strategy do we have in place to expand the resources around us so that we can focus mostly on that zone of genius work? Who do we need to set up around us? What are the processes we need to have in place? Team dynamics are often present at these stages too, where maybe team members don’t fully trust themselves or their performance isn’t up to par of what it needs to be. Or maybe they’re heavily reliant on us and we know we can’t scale when this is present. So we often have to do a cleanup and a reset and reestablish what that looks like. So those are the common themes that I see regardless of levels. And then, you know, what I would say is, you know, at a director level, you know, often at director level, directors need more visibility. They need to understand how to advocate for themselves more. Maybe they’ve never advocated for themselves before. And they need sponsorship.

Shauna Moran:
You know, they need other women around them to learn from and to see that it’s even possible. So they need that inspiration, they need that knowledge and they need that visibility. And then at a VP C suite level, you know, they need that strategic resilience, they need that systemic influence and how to, how to, how to navigate systemic challenges. And power dynamics are often very, very prevalent at this level as well. So the psychology of human behavior, how to navigate those dynamics, those relational power dynamics, how to manage one’s emotional mental self when going through that. Because at that level, you know, the stakes are higher, but the isolation is often higher too. So strong women need strong support systems.

Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, yeah. I have a very good friend, a very strong friend that always says, check on your strong friends. And it’s so true. And I love it when we do that for each other because yeah, it takes a lot to be strong and it shouldn’t be you doing it all and all alone. And I love what you said, and I have said it before, actually said it to a room of young professionals on a panel this week, that leading does not mean always doing. It’s not always the thing. It’s not in the weeds like you said. And I love how you threw in that impact because when you get so far down into the weeds and you are so busy taking on more responsibility because that’s what leadership feels like to you, possibly you’re right, like you’re not allowing for space for impact and to kind of rise up by having that 30,000 foot view.

Amy Vaughan:
So I love, love, love that perspective. And then another one I wanted to point out was sponsorship. I’ve been doing a lot of reading and research about women and leadership as well and closing the networking g all these different things that as women we need to start to try to figure out systematically what we need to do, but then also maybe how we need to make leadership look different. And one of those things is that women don’t rise through the ranks by leading projects. They don’t rise through the ranks by having more time with leadership based on the research. They actually move through the ranks by having their name spoken in the rooms that they are not in. We rise through the ranks through third party validation, which is sponsorship, not mentorship. A lot of women are over mentored, right.

Amy Vaughan:
And under sponsored. We don’t have people giving us the opportunities, opening the doors, putting money where their mouth is when it comes to, you know, putting women in leadership roles.

Shauna Moran:
So it’s so true. And you know, just to add to that as well, Amy, you know, when you’re talking about moving beyond being the executor, because that’s often how a lot of women leaders get to where they are, you know, is because they’ve been masterful doers and multitaskers and they can hold a lot at once. You know, there comes a point in time where you have to evolve from that. And your definition of leadership has to change how you see yourself as a leader, how you see your worth and your value. And for that shift to happen, that’s a mental and emotional journey that we have to go on. And you know, even just to learn to be able to let go, to let go of work, to let go of being the doer. Who am I if I’m not doing so? That’s where, you know, for women, it’s deeply tied to her self worth. And that’s a journey that I’m lucky to partner with so many women on, which is so important to note too.

Amy Vaughan:
It is, it’s almost an unlearning, right, because there’s so much that we’ve been conditioned, right. We are the nurturers, we are the doers, we do the invisible labor, we do the support, the nurturing, all that. I love it. Well, and I know, like a lot of our listeners right now, I’ve had so many great conversations with women that are directors and above levels within the community that do struggle with that kind of being stuck in the doing. And oh, I wanted to mention, you mentioned the zone of genius. For anybody who’s curious about what that term is and means and what it relates to, the Big Leap is a really great book that breaks down like your zone of incompetence, competence. There’s one in between, right? Your zone of expertise. Is that what it is? And then your zone of genius, is that right?

Shauna Moran:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Your zone of genius, your zone of expert.

Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. And we get trapped, right? We get trapped in that space of experts because we can execute well. But are we actually working to our fullest potential? How many women have I talked to, and I’m sure you’ve coached so many too, that is like, I don’t feel like I’m being leveraged to my fullest potential, but I am working so hard and so heavily that I am burnt out. And that’s that trap. That’s that trap of being in your zone of expertise. Where you do like to shine, but you’re not thriving. Like you are competent, like you are capable, you can do it. And so another question I have for you that I think a lot of our members would be curious about because they’re navigating leadership transitions right now.

Amy Vaughan:
There’s a lot of organizational happening, organizational changes happening on every level. What are some of the best? Were the most critical support systems and things that they should be advocating for during these pivotal moments where things feel a bit rocky for, I mean, a lot of us men and women.

Shauna Moran:
Yeah, for sure, for sure. So number one, I think the most important thing is to look at what, what does that support system look like? Truly, it’s an opportunity to reflect. What is my support system, who does it involve? Who should it involve? Where are some of those gaps? You know, am I missing some gaps in terms of internal sponsorship? Am I missing some gaps in terms of leadership development? Or do I have an executive coach? Do I have a mentor that’s maybe, you know, has experience in my industry, you know, outside of just even your work support system, what does your support system look like at home? What does it look like in terms of your mental health, your physical health, your emotional health? And if there’s gaps in that support system? Where there are, there often is. Especially as we’re evolving and changing, we need more. It’s time to plug that in. It really is time to plug that. And I think about my own support system. I’m currently doing a bit of a renovation on that right now.

Shauna Moran:
You know, it’s. Who does that involve in terms of business mentorship? In terms of, you know, my coaching supervisor, in terms of my own mental health and well being. Right. What does that look like? And I think mapping that out is absolutely, absolutely key because if you want to go fast, go alone, if you want to go far, go together. Right. And it really does take a team. And sometimes that support system is also your team. It should also be your team.

Shauna Moran:
So if there’s gaps there on that support system from your team’s perspective, if you can’t fully hand things over, if you’re still carrying a load of responsibility that really shouldn’t be on your plate, it’s time to build out that team as well. The other thing I think is incredibly important as we go through change, because change triggers our nervous systems. You know, it sends us into a freeze, a fight or a flight. And, you know, we’re not at our best when we’re in those states. Right. And some of us have a more expanded window of tolerance for what we can tolerate when it comes to change. But for most of us, when we’re going through change, we are triggered, whether we realize or not. And in that triggering, our executive function isn’t going to work at its best.

Shauna Moran:
So we’re not going to be the best to make decisions. We’re not going to be thinking at our best. Our cognitive function may be impaired, you know, when we’re in those states of stress.

Amy Vaughan:
Oh, my gosh. Yes.

Shauna Moran:
So what I often find is, with women, the most important thing to regulate our nervous system is clarity and role clarity. I see this time and time again. I’ve seen it for years. If there’s any lack of clarity around what’s expected of you, if you’re not clear on that, and if you haven’t reality tested that with. With your. With the people around you, your boss or your leadership peers, yes. That’s going to feel unsettling for you. So role clarity is a way to settle that nervous system.

Shauna Moran:
And it can look like this. Look, my role has changed a lot in the last six weeks. You know, everything is going through change. Here’s how I see the next 30 days and 60 days and 90 days. Here are the key metrics of success for me, my department, and my team. Are we on the same page? Yes, we are, Shawna. Great. Fab.

Shauna Moran:
Now, I can come from a regulated state knowing we’re on the same page. So role clarity, it sounds so basic, but it’s so important. Our nervous system key.

Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Well, and if you think about it, you know, there’s a lot of people in situations right now where there’s organizational change or layoffs, and they won’t replace roles, and instead they’ll combine roles. And I can’t tell you how many people I’ve talked to recently that are like, yeah, we’ve had turnover, we’ve had layoffs, we’ve whatnot, we’ve had reorg, and all of a sudden, nobody knows which way is up or down. And you are so right. I mean, there’s a ton of research behind that, too, right? When we are in a state of frustration, fear, fight or flight, freeze or fawn, your IQ drops. Like, we are not as smart because our brain is like us to us, in our nervous system, it feels like we’re running from a lion, but we’re just trying to do our jobs. But our brain, our little reptilian brains don’t know the difference. And it’s just one of those things that comes up time and time again, and organizations are like we don’t understand why is everybody panicking? Why are we having all these mass exodus and why are people leaving and why are people still not happy and why aren’t they producing like they used to? It’s like, hello, like it all comes down to how we’re, like you said, we’re able to regulate.

Amy Vaughan:
Such great insight, Shauna. Such a powerful, powerful and important insight for all of us to understand and know. And again, having that plan and that clarity, I mean, it’s funny, even as you were talking about it, I can feel like, oh yes, clarity. A path forward, knowing what’s ahead. Like there’s just such safety in that.

Shauna Moran:
There’s such safety and then we can just show up and do our best work and be at our best. But if it’s uncertain, if it’s unclear and it’s, you know, there are going to be times where that clarity may not be as attainable. And you know, in that uncertainty and that change, that’s where that inner work comes in, where it’s okay, how can I regulate myself? How can I move into those states of trust? What’s the evidence to support that? I have gone through change successfully because before that I can navigate uncertainty and come out the other side stronger. What’s your own data? What’s your own evidence to support that? You’ve got this, you know, and trusting in the expansion of resilience through all of that is key, you know, and understanding. Okay, what, what, what do I really need to just regulate myself and you know, what are the practices that I have, the micro moments, the macro moments, what can I plan? You and I were talking about planning breaks, the importance of having something to look forward to, all of those things and understanding as well, you know, as women. What’s your, what’s your energy blueprint, you know, like even your seasonal blueprint, you know. You know, for you, you’re saying that at this time of the year it’s really important for you to have a break. You know that about yourself.

Shauna Moran:
Great. Lock that in. You know, for me, I know that come January, February, I need some sunshine. I live on the west coast in Canada and you know, that’s non-negotiable for me. I’m going to be going on a trip somewhere and getting that sunshine. I also know that, you know, there’s certain times of the year where, you know, I facilitate retreats for the women I work with and I know that I need a certain period of time off after that. And what that looks like right so understanding what your rhythms are, I think, and to honor that is important and to not go against that is key. What do your rhythms look like on a daily basis? What do they look like on a weekly basis? For me, you know, I try to maintain two days a week of deep work where I don’t have a break.

Shauna Moran:
Sometimes that is impossible, I’ll be honest. But I know that if it’s become a, you know, a habit where that’s not happening, okay, something needs to happen. I need to either delegate or I need to get more resources. But that time has to be protected because I know without that time I’m not at my best. So collect your own data and start to build that in. And of course, adaptability is key. You know, I just think long gone are the days where it’s like I have a weekly routine that I stick to every day. Do you remember those days where it’s like this is my weekly routine?

Shauna Moran:
Great. And now things are just. We’re living in a world of constant flux, constant change. But what is it that’s going to anchor you and how can you adapt around those anchors but still have those anchors? Ultimately, yes.

Amy Vaughan:
And those anchors are really just boundaries, right? Like energy management, it’s such a real thing. Because what you’re talking about is burnout prevention, right? You know, and I know that that’s something you work with a lot of high performing women that they struggle with. And then so, you know, on top of, you know, being aware of your energy levels and where you get energy, where what, what drains you and then those buffers, like you were saying, facilitating a retreat for women can be, it can be a very like fulfilling thing, but at the same time a bit draining because you’re holding a lot of space, right? And you’re facilitating. And so sometimes I even say this too. For introverts who network, it’s like, pay attention to your energy levels. Like you can show up and be a great networker. Introverts, I think, are the best networkers because they’re the best listeners. But it’s really about energy management.

Amy Vaughan:
It’s about knowing that you need quiet time and time to regulate before you go into the public space and start socializing. And then you need a little bit of time after. So it’s really about, like you said, being aware of your, those spaces, the energy needs and then creating those boundaries. Are there other ways that when you’re working with leaders, you help them recognize when they’re operating in really unsustainable ways?

Shauna Moran:
For sure, yeah. It’s you know, it’s such a personal journey when it comes to stress management, burnout prevention, because we all show stress in different ways, we all feel stressed in different ways. You know, our levels of stress tolerance are different too. You know, what we can tolerate. And I do believe that as we grow, as we go through life, our stress tolerance, you know, increases. I really do believe that, you know, we can hold a lot more. And, you know, and I often say to my clients, you know, look at what you’re holding right now, like two years ago that would have, you know, floored you and now you’re thriving. So I, I like to really focus on that too, is that, you know, that resilience piece and we get stronger.

Shauna Moran:
However, when it comes to burnout, you know, oftentimes we talk about burnout prevention and the focus is very much on the individual. Okay, I need to meditate more, I need to do more yoga, I need to take breaks. And sometimes for women, we don’t need that message, right, because it’s like, I just need to do more. It’s perpetuating that belief of doing it again. And, you know, there’s always work. As individuals, I believe that we get to do what a privilege it is we get to do that, but also that we have to take responsibility for ourselves, you know, and what are our boundaries? Are they strong, are they weak, are they flexible, or are they non-negotiables? And that’s going to vary across the lots of different relationships and at home and, you know, at work and depending on where you’re at in your journey. So there’s no one size fits all with any of this. You know, what are the beliefs that I’m holding around my leadership and how is that perpetuating cycles of unhealthy stress versus giving me space to be in the healthy stress, which is, you know, that good stress. As you and I were talking about the good work, the exciting work, so what’s, you know, me and how we manage ourselves as individuals is a big piece, but it goes beyond that too.

Shauna Moran:
You know, it’s about the environments that we work in. A huge element of burnout prevention is the leaders that we work for, you know, that are managing us and the leaders that we are being as well. So quality leadership, support, role clarity, manageable workloads, realistic timelines, fair treatment at work, you know, all of these things contribute to cycles of unhealthy stress. And if any of those pieces are off in our workplaces or in the environment, that’s going to be a source of chronic stress, which can then turn into burnout. So one of my areas of genius is, you know, understanding whole systems and being able to reflect and pull out what’s really going on to understand the root cause. So oftentimes when, you know, a leader comes to me and they say, I’m burnt out, which, you know, that, that even that language we test because, you know, there’s a definition of burnout, you know, by the World Health Organization, and, you know, that is when we are in prolonged states of chronic stress. It’s characterized by physical exhaustion, emotional exhaustion, and a more negative mindset. There’s five different stages to burnout.

Shauna Moran:
So it’s important for us to have this knowledge so that we’re using the right language as well. So when women come to me in that state, it’s not just looking at them as individuals, but the whole system, what’s at play here. And sometimes it’s been, you know, sometimes it might be its bit. They’ve been in an unmanageable workload for a long period of time, you know, or they’ve been working with unrealistic timelines, or they just haven’t had role clarity for a long time. Or maybe they’ve been experiencing unfair treatment at work, bullying, harassment, whatever that is, that has been a source of just chronic stress for a long period of time. So there’s so much to that topic. And, you know, often what I do with women is educate them, educate them on where burnout comes from, what are the sources of unhealthy stress, chronic stress, what are some of the strategies that they can put in place to prevent and reduce those root causes. And then we’re moving into states of empowerment again.

Shauna Moran:
Okay, this is what we can control. This is what we can influence. This is what we cannot control. And from there we make decisions, you know, whether it is. And I’ve experienced burnout in my career, you know, three times by the age of 28, as a leader in different corporate environments, I experienced burnout. So it’s very, very. I resonate. It’s very alive in my system, knowing what that feels like.

Shauna Moran:
And I wish that I had the knowledge as to where it was coming from each time, as opposed to just blaming myself. And that’s what I essentially try to do for the women around me, is to educate them. It’s more than just you, you know, and you can make informed choices if it is the environment and you’ve focused on everything you can control and everything you’ve, you know, you can change at least you can walk away from something knowing you’ve done everything that you possibly can.

Amy Vaughan:
You can. It is so true. Oh, my gosh. I. So many thoughts, I feel. And I wonder if you see this a lot too. There’s just this especially. I know you’re in Canada and your family and you are from Ireland. But so, like, work culture, I feel like, is very different. Like, I lived overseas for a couple years and it was. It was very stark, the difference. And Americans, we are just straight up workaholics and gay capitalism. But there’s like almost this sense of Stockholm syndrome sometimes as well. Like, there’s a lack of general awareness. Like you just said that sometimes it is that the system, the culture, the space that you’re in is broken, not you. But for whatever reason, as women, we tend to put the blame on ourselves and we will do everything we can to be like, I have imposter syndrome.

Amy Vaughan:
I have to fix that. I don’t have enough executive presence. I have to fix that. And sometimes it is stepping back and looking at the landscape and saying, is really the problem me? Am I controlling what I can control? Or is the option to make a different choice? You know, especially when it comes to burnout. Because at the end of the day, I always tell people, I’m like, our job titles are not going to be on our headstones. You know, that’s not why we’re on this earth. You know, we work to get paid. And, you know, if you can make a living doing what you love, wonderful.

Amy Vaughan:
But sometimes that’s not always the thing. And sometimes you have to find joy outside of just that. But it’s like, it’s interesting. And I also wanted to throw out there, as you were kind of explaining, I think one other pitfall for women. Not a pitfall, but just something we don’t talk about enough for women. And I’m kind of curious how this comes up. Is menopause and perimenopause about the time when we are peaking in our career? We are going through one of the biggest hormonal changes our body will ever experience. And I am in perimenopause.

Amy Vaughan:
And I’m like, wait, what? It’s like this record scratch. Like, wait, what. What’s happening to my mind, my body, at a time when you are meant to be at your peak performance because you’re in that stage of, like, you’re in a leadership role, but also you’re like in your 40s, so you’re kind of in that weird, nebulous, almost invisible, irrelevant. I’m using air quotes for those who can’t see us in space.

Shauna Moran:
Yes, absolutely. And, you know, I’m in my 30s, so I don’t have direct experience with that, Amy, but I do.

Amy Vaughan:
Coming for you, girl. I’m sorry.

Shauna Moran:
But you know, what I am grateful for is the fact that I’m so educated on it because of the conversations that we’re having today and the awareness. And, you know, I’ve met with menopause coaches and experts that are supporting women in the workplace. You know, I am fortunate enough to collaborate with coaches that are in perimenopause and menopause, and for the younger generation to say, how can I support you in the workplace as you navigate that? And one of my colleagues shared with me, you know, herself and her colleague, another female leader, would, you know, sometimes when the brain fog happens and the word just isn’t there, they would catch each other in those moments and fill those gaps. And I thought that’s really what it means to lift women up, right? Like, is to support each other in those moments, to have those conversations to say, hey, you know, if I. If I witness you having a hot flash, how can I support you in those moments? Like, what is it that you need from me as yours? As your peer, as your sister, as your, you know, and that’s really where we take that to the next level. And so I’m so grateful that we’re having those conversations and that we’re not going to be gaslit anymore. You know, I think it was the menopause coach that I.

Shauna Moran:
That I listened to. She shared that, you know, on average in the UK, I think it takes women at least eight times to be diagnosed with perimenopause by their doctors. Right. So it’s, you know, the systems around us have even been failing women. And, you know, I know what that feels like in terms of our health, where we’re not getting those answers. And if we’re not getting answers, we’re not getting solutions. So that’s a whole journey that I’m sure a lot of women are on, is advocating for themselves. And if something isn’t right, keep advocating in any way.

Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. And I think knowing that you’re not alone, to your point, like, just keeping the conversation going, you know, for that next generation to know that like. Like this, there’s just an awareness there. There’s an acceptance, there’s an understanding there. There’s, you know, there’s no one size fits all solution for it, unfortunately. And peri-menopause can last up to 10 years. That’s also incredible. And like, where there’s so little research and study on an understanding of menopause in general, which is why, you know, women won’t get diagnosed until like eight times or like coming at it and saying, listen, this is what’s happening to me.

Amy Vaughan:
I am definitely in that camp. I think it took maybe four times, not quite eight, but like, yeah, it took a lot of convincing with my doctors, male and female, to really get them to understand and hear me and really help me find some options and solutions for me so that, yeah, you can continue to function as, you know, if you’re a mom, wife, boss, babe, business owner, whatever that looks like. And you know, like you said earlier too, like, as women climb that ladder, it gets a little bit lonelier and lonelier because there’s less of them. And so when you’re going through something pretty much as life changing as this can be for some people, that’s hard. It’s even more isolating still. So let’s get to the next question. When you’re coaching someone to advocate for leadership support in their workplace, which is I think a lot of why some folks are going to be listening here today, what is the most effective approach that you’ve seen for having that conversation with the decision makers who maybe aren’t women especially, for sure.

Shauna Moran:
Well, I always think about, okay, who is it that is going to be making the decision and what do they value? So, you know, oftentimes if it’s, you know, if it’s leaders that really value that, you know, that connection more, those softer skills, if leaders have gone through coaching themselves before, they’ll get it right so they’ll be more influenced or bought in through, you know, the possibility, through, you know, the team success through the impact, all of those things. But it’s always important as well to have data, you know, and number one, that’s what I equip women leaders with on the program to say, you know, this is the data behind your impact first. So I think that’s a key ritual that we need to create as women leaders is what are the results of all of my output and what’s the ROI of that? Six months, 12 months, two years later. And one example of this is, you know, I was approached by a VP once and she really wanted to work with me, I really wanted to work with her and was like, okay, how can we advocate for this to your CEO. And I said, okay, what’s been the ROI of your work over the last two years and the work that you’ve been doing? And she was like, I think it’s this. I feel it’s this. I’ve noticed this. Okay, let’s bring it back to the data, which is not often the first place that we go as women, especially when it comes to ourselves.

Shauna Moran:
Anyways, long story short, we calculated everything, wrote it down, spent some time on this, and we calculated that she saved her business. Three million in the last. I think it was 18 months. And with the changes that she made with, you know, the team that she created and coached and what they. What led to, you know, their impact. So when she was able to read this and digest this and process this, there was a stark difference in the person that she was and how she showed up. And from that place, she was able to advocate for the coaching and the leadership development and the sponsorship that she needed and to join the program. And she was successful in that.

Shauna Moran:
And as a result of that, now she’s even talking about the impact of, of the program and the work that she’s doing. And other leaders are witnessing that within her, and her CEO is celebrating that. Right. But it’s. How do we prime our systems to be able to advocate for that, knowing that we do deserve that, and that’s the work that we need to do ourselves? And then making the pitch to, you know, the leaders, to your sponsor, to the decision maker. Back it up with data, you know, and back it up as in terms of, here’s all of the impact that I’m creating, here’s all the results that I’ve created. I want to do more of this. And in order for me to do more of this, I need a stronger support system.

Shauna Moran:
So what’s going to be possible when I have a strong support system? Here are my goals, here’s what I’m focusing on, you know, and there may be some more personal goals. Maybe there’s confidence pieces, mindset, all of those. You know, maybe you don’t want to share those pieces, but here’s the goals that I have within this organization. Here’s the systemic change I want to make. Here’s the change I want to make in my department, and here’s how coaching and leadership development and mentorship can support me with that. And once they witness that, like, some of the women in my program have been in my program for, you know, three years and they’ve got promoted year after year after year, they do not have to advocate for Coaching anymore because their decision makers are bought in and they’re putting the other female leaders into the program because they’re like, go, this is our insurance policy to make sure that we are protecting these amazing female leaders that are having such an impact on our organization. Go. We are investing in you.

Shauna Moran:
We value you. We care about you. This is your space, your confidential space to do your thing. Things that we can’t support you with because we’re biased and we’re your peers and we aren’t. We aren’t executive coaches. You know, we don’t have those. That, that, that professional lens. So that’s the difference.

Shauna Moran:
So if anyone’s listening and you want coaching and you want to advocate for it, if you’re ready for it, like, hit me up, because I am locked and loaded with blueprints, and I love it. Data to really support women in getting this. And what a celebration. Amy, like, when, when women come to me, they’re like, shauna, I got it approved. I’m like, yes, you have, because you’ve just like, look at all the work that you’ve done. Look at the success that you’ve brought to your organization. I have another lady right now, like, she’s built a whole department by herself that’s generated millions for her organization, and she’s done it all alone.

Amy Vaughan:
Right? Yeah, yeah. It’s a big piece of that negotiation. I mean, when you build the case and you have the proof, it’s true. It’s not even negotiation anymore. It’s just coming to an agreement because there’s a win-win. It’s like a very clear win right there. So, yeah, like, why not lean into it? Be the case study. And then oftentimes, you know, we had this in one of our ask and give exchanges where it’s actually a guy, a woman was asking for some advice.

Amy Vaughan:
I don’t honestly remember the exact ask, but he said, ask for no overreach. Like, come ready and prepared with a clear and confident ask. And the proof as to why this is just not even negotiable, like, why. It’s just, this is what we need to do. And then just ask for the no, because, you know that’s the worst it could be is a no. And then you just figure something else out, right?

Shauna Moran:
Totally, totally. And then they, you know, something’s going to happen from that. Right. So, you know, benchmark as well. Like benchmarking with data, benchmarking with competitors or your competitors, you know, investing in women’s programs. All of those pieces add to Add to the case that you’re building. And you know, the other thing is, I think, is making sure that you are advocating for yourself every time you have a change of role or position or organization. So, yes, like we talk about negotiating our salary and making sure we have certain benefits in place.

Shauna Moran:
Make the ask for coaching then too.

Amy Vaughan:
Right.

Shauna Moran:
To say, look, this is a program I want to join. You know, this is something that I do every year or I want to do every year. That’s the time to do it.

Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, yeah. Change is always, to me, has always been an opportunity. Right. Things are shifting, things are moving. All that is just opening up doors that maybe you didn’t see were open before. And I do agree with you on that. And I’ll kind of frame this up so I can go into the next question. You need external help.

Amy Vaughan:
Like, it can’t just be all fixed from the inside. Right. Because there’s just not always psychological safety, like you said, it’s not always unbiased. And so having that external resource is so important. And for the longest time, I think companies really felt like they needed to be the ones to have the ergs and the mentorship program, and they really struggled to maintain those. And some of them were in earnest and some of them were a little performative, I’ll be honest. But to me, that was kind of a blind spot for organizations. You know, I had one company tell us that they didn’t want to get a group membership for digital members to support their women in their career growth and advancement through peer mentoring and our programming because they said if we let them network, they will leave.

Amy Vaughan:
So to me, that’s huge. Right, like, whoa, big red flag. But also like a very large blind spot. I was kind of curious, you know, outside of that, was there. Are there any other organizational blind spots that you have encountered that tends to undermine women’s advancement because of these general biases that, oh, my gosh, if we let these women out, they’re going to just start networking and not like men. We’d assume they’re going to build a business. We assume they’re just going to leave. Yeah, yeah.

Shauna Moran:
That’s shocking. You know, that. That is still the conversation. And that to me, you know, shows that that organization is completely thinking of it so backward, you know, instead of how do we make sure our women, you know, how do we. How do we make sure our women don’t have the opportunity where they could leave? Why are they not asking themselves, how do we make sure our women leaders want to stay here? You know, and truly thrive here. So, you know, that’s the shift in perspective. And I think every organization needs to be asking themselves how do we ensure that our top female talent actually thrives here? And they’re only going to ask that question when they’ve. Not every organisation, but most organizations will only ask that question when they either just naturally inherently value and really want to focus on the diversity of female talent or they’ve experienced the pain of losing female leaders.

Shauna Moran:
So you know, I think other blind spots is, you know, really that broken rung and it’s, you know, that typically, and it’s not just an organization like it’s a systemic challenge where women, you know, research shows us women are typically promoted at lower rates than men are. And then that can compound over time where we have, you know, leaky pipelines, where we have pipelines of future leaders that, you know, don’t have the right number of women, a female representation there. So, you know, that’s where it’s like, okay, we don’t have enough women, we don’t have enough women on our team. So I think, you know, to actually really look at what are we doing to support women at all stages of their journeys to rise and to develop so that we’re ensuring that pipeline is strong both internally and externally within organizations like what, what can we do to attract amazing female talent, you know, and how can we be different to our competitors? And here’s the thing, if you’re investing in women leaders, if you have an ERG group, if you offer coaching, training, mentorship, if you put your money where your mouth is, you will attract, and you will not just attract them, you will retain them. Amazing female talent. So really looking at the pipeline, what are the proactive strategies that we’re putting in place to make sure that, you know, we’re working towards this long term is key. And what I love seeing as well is women leaders, champ, you know, they’re the champions of this within their organization. And I call, I call these women lifters, you know, because they’re genuinely lifting others, you know, lifting others up into other positions.

Shauna Moran:
They’re the ones sponsoring others, mentioning their names, recommending them, giving them the opportunities. And I see this with the women in my program, you know, they’re bringing their team members in there, they’re advocating to make sure that they also have coaching, that they also have that support. And not every woman is like that either. No, unfortunately, you know, it’s not the case. And oftentimes it’s other women that can harm other Women the most. So there’s work there to do. Personally, if we’re not a lifter, if we’re not lifting other women, what’s the story that we’re holding about other women? Is it that they’re a threat? Is it that there’s not enough to go around? Is it that I’ve had to work so hard to get here? Why shouldn’t you? What are those stories that may be at play that are preventing you from lifting others? You know, we have to walk or talk here. Enough is enough.

Shauna Moran:
This ultimately, how are we going to change the landscape of women leaders through other women?

Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, no, I agree. It’s hard to ask for equality for women when we don’t treat each other equally. You know, it is that double edged sword for sure. And like you said, whether it’s the scarcity mindset or the power dynamics and all of that, but it’s like, you know, rising tides raise all ships. You know, there is more than enough to go around for all of us. And by choosing collaboration over competition, like the gains for everyone are so exponential and we get to see that in our community every day. I’m sure you do as well with the groups and the cohorts that you lead. And it’s, it’s, it is, it’s a competitive advantage.

Amy Vaughan:
It is true that people don’t see collaboration as a competitive advantage. They think that competitive advantage is outdoing everybody else. To me, competitive advantage is actually learning how to work alongside more people. Right. And going, like you said, further together. It’s not about, you can get there fast by yourself. But yeah, if you want to go further, if you want to go the distance and make the long game play, which really at the end of the day, you know, we need to do, then yeah, it’s collaboration and it’s lifting other women up. Yeah, we’re very big on that.

Amy Vaughan:
At Together Digital, we are like no, we are no mean girl zone. We are all very much like to ask without any sense of guilt or shame and give without any judgment because we’re all here to learn and to share and to grow and to do just to always be growing and be better. So, yeah, I think, you know, on that note, you know, for me, this is what gives me a lot of hope about the future of women’s leadership. I’m curious what gives you the most hope about the future of women leadership and maybe what still concerns you the most?

Shauna Moran:
Yeah, I. What gives me the most hope? I mean, every day I’m, I’m, I’m hopeful And I’m very much someone that’s very optimistic. Anyway, it’s. It’s just part of my DNA that I feel that, you know, I feel just the impact of that. And, I mean, I’m just off the back of hosting my annual impact amplification retreat, so, you know, where I brought so many of my clients together in person for two days. And all I have to do is just tap into the energy of that. And I’m hopeful because there’s brilliant women in positions of influence that truly are changing systems for the better. Big work.

Shauna Moran:
They are doing big, big work with big, big hearts. And that, to me, is. Is everything. I tend not to. I tend not to reflect too much on how far we have to come or where we’re at, because I just find that oftentimes at events or women’s events, we. We spend so much time there, and we don’t give women concrete strategies or action plans or frameworks on how to move forward. So I’m more of a. Let’s focus on what’s in it.

Shauna Moran:
Within our control, let’s make change from that place.

Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely. Yeah. Because the summit is high, you have to focus on that next step. Right. You can’t just be looking straight up at the summit and trying to make your way there, hike your friends.

Shauna Moran:
Totally.

Amy Vaughan:
Or not even move. Next step. Yeah.

Shauna Moran:
And just looking at the summit and talking about how high it is.

Amy Vaughan:
Oh, right. Exactly. What’s the point? They’re not going to get there by complaining or worrying about it. It is just planning that small next baby step. And I so agree with you, Shauna. I think it’s the. It’s the micro moments, it’s the small choices that we make every day to sort of shed that skin of doubt, of fear, of competition, you know, all that kind of stuff, all judgment, whatever that is for you, that is the roadblock that doesn’t allow you to feel. Get the benefit of connection and community and have strong women, support strong women.

Amy Vaughan:
You know, it’s such a huge advantage. It’s such a great career unlock for anybody that’s just kind of willing and ready, you know, to kind of let that go. And it doesn’t require anything major massive on your part. It’s. Sometimes it’s as simple as showing up.

Shauna Moran:
That’s it. I love it. Amy. Yep.

Amy Vaughan:
Same. I know, right? This has been such a good conversation. All right, we’re going to pivot over on into our power round questions. Live listeners, if you have any questions for Shauna, feel free to jump into the Chat and drop those in and then we’ll wrap it up for the afternoon so y’all can get back to your Friday. Shauna, what is the best leadership advice you’ve ever received?

Shauna Moran:
Yeah, it would be that if you. If you often settle for. If you settle for second best, you’ll very often get it.

Amy Vaughan:
Yep. Oh, that cuts. So true. And we do. We get so used to the crumbs, we’re like, oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah, we can’t ask for more. God forbid. All right, the next one is to finish the sentence.

Amy Vaughan:
A real leadership capacity looks like space.

Shauna Moran:
To think, having the energy to care and having the courage to act.

Amy Vaughan:
Beautiful. I love it. What is one leadership myth that you wish would disappear?

Shauna Moran:
Oh, that great leaders have to sacrifice well being.

Amy Vaughan:
Yes. Thank you a hundred percent on that. All right, and on that note of the sacrifice and the wellness, what is your go to stress reset practice when coaching back to back sessions? Because like I said, that can be taxing for you.

Shauna Moran:
Totally, Definitely. I’m going to say two things. Breath, work.

Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.

Shauna Moran:
Always accessible, always there. Your own medicine that God has gifted us that we don’t have to search outside of ourselves for anything. We can just breathe. So powerful, it resets that nervous system straight away. And for me, nature, I live. If I’m looking over here, it’s because I’m looking at the ocean.

Amy Vaughan:
So lucky, girl.

Shauna Moran:
I feel very grateful. And sometimes I see whales, which isn’t always the best. When I’m on a call, I’m like, how if I see a whale during this podcast, what am I gonna do?

Amy Vaughan:
Right? You know what, on this one, girl, you just look out that window and you just tell us how beautiful that whale is. Because I would be the same way. So absolutely open to having. Giving you that space. All right, what’s a. What’s a good way for our listeners?

Shauna Moran:
To connect with you?

Amy Vaughan:
If they work.

Shauna Moran:
Yeah. So I’m on LinkedIn. I’m not a huge social media gal, but I do create a lot of content and share a lot on LinkedIn, so feel free to add me there. You can check out my website, www.shaunamorin.com. If you want to sign up for my newsletter, you can use that URL with a forward slash newsletter. And I send out newsletters and leadership newsletters for women every single week. So you can sign up to that too.

Amy Vaughan:
Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Encourage you all. Take a tiny step, go check it out. Sign up for the newsletter. Get a little bit of that Shauna in your inbox every week. That sounds like it would be amazing. Thank you Shauna, so much because of all of your insights on the roi.

Amy Vaughan:
Investing in women leaders is really what we all need to continue to hear now more than ever. So to our listeners, if today’s conversation resonated with you, remember that the Power Lounge recordings are always available to you. So check them out for free after the event on YouTube. Subscribe to the podcast, leave a review. We love that. Send us a little high five and five stars of love. And obviously, as Shauna said, you can connect with her on LinkedIn on her website. Definitely check out her Impact amplification program and her leadership systems partnership.

Amy Vaughan:
And if you are ready to be a part of a community that believes in the power of supporting strong women, supporting strong women in digital, you can definitely check it out and join us@togetherindigital.com we have a lot of professional development opportunities, a lot of peer coaching, peer groups. Just a genuine, authentic group of women who are just so wise and so smart and so generous. So, you know, you are definitely right in that camp, Shauna. You’re just like solid gold. So thank you for all the time and energy that you spend and putting towards other women, supporting them as leaders and helping us all be better. Thank you again for joining us today.

Shauna Moran:
Shauna, thank you so much for having me. Thanks for creating this space for us to have this conversation and for asking such wonderful questions that genuinely, I wish I was able to listen to this, you know, years ago when I needed it.

Amy Vaughan:
So. I know, right? These are all the things wishing we could go back in time and tell ourselves. All right, Shauna, thank you again so much. Wonderful conversation today, everyone. Thank you for joining us this week. It’s been great to have you here with us. Until next time, everyone, please keep asking, keep giving and keep growing. We hope to see you next week.

Amy Vaughan:
Bye, everybody.