Amy Vaughn:

Alright. Hello, everyone, and welcome to our weekly power lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn, and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women in digital who choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. You can join the movement at togetherindigital.com. And today, we are going to dive deep into the heart of what makes a workplace truly thrive. And, no, we’re not just talking about free snacks and work from home Fridays. We are talking about exploring the powerful forces of intrinsic motivation and the psychology behind optimal performance.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Our guest today is a true expert on employee engagement with over 3 decades of experience and attraction and recognition and retention and recognition. Kelly McCollum is the founder of STAY and a whiz at cracking the code of workplace culture. Her approach has transformed organizations across North America to employee magnets. So whether you’re a creative director looking to spark innovation for your design team, a digital marketing manager aiming to boost productivity and your always on environment, or a tech leader striving to cultivate a more inclusive and more motivated development team, you’re in the right place. I know this has been a big topic of conversation as we’re all kind of sitting in this weird world of hybrid remote work as well. I hope you’re all ready to challenge your assumptions, gain some actionable insights, and walk away with some tools to create a workplace where people don’t just show up, but show up excited and ready to excel. Remember, live listeners, we know that you’re here with us, and we love to have you here with us to be able to make your comments in the chat, ask your questions, share any of your experiences and enthusiasm, so please don’t hold back. We love to hear from you.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Everyone, please welcome our expert and guest today, Kelly McCollum, and let’s dive into empowering performance and workplace motivation. Welcome, Kelly.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Hey. Thanks, Amy, for having me. I really appreciate it. I know it’s been a long time in the working, so, great to finally get together and have a chat.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Must very much agree. This is an important topic. You know, I realized we talk a lot about digital marketing and advertising, but a lot of us within this community are our team and group leaders, and we have to do a lot to work and motivate the people that are around us. And, again, as our work involves our work environments have been changing and evolving over the last few years, you know, this stuff, it kind of just seems to get harder rather than easier. But I wanna take a step back for a moment, and I wanna start at the beginning, specifically your beginning, Kelly.

 

Amy Vaughn:

And I wanna kinda let our listeners know how you first got interested in employee engagement, and what was your journey to founding your company’s day?

 

Kelly McCollum:

Yeah. Yeah. We’ll get to that one second. I just wanna affirm something you said. Mhmm. Management is hard. Management has it. Like, management is hard.

 

Kelly McCollum:

It’s always been hard, and it’s not getting any easier. The circumstances we see ourselves in in the realities of 2024, like, it’s not getting easier to be a manager. So I think the first thing I wanna say to anybody who’s in a leadership position is cut yourself some slack. Right? Because it’s a demanding job. You’re being asked to do 50 different things, and you have a life outside of that. So Absolutely. I’ll start with that. And about me.

 

Kelly McCollum:

So, employee engagement, like I I I never heard of employee engagement until, you know, sometime in the 2000. So, you know, back in the early nineties when I started working, we didn’t talk about things like engagement or culture. We just knew if we liked our jobs or hated our jobs. Right? And I do my part early in my career. I’d volunteer on social committees and try to plan great parties and golf tournaments, and that was kind of, like, what culture was at the time, bringing a little bit of fun to work. And so it wasn’t until I landed a job as a project manager with an employee engagement survey company that I started to be able to put some pieces around what is this thing that makes us like our work and hate our work. And they introduced the concept of employee engagement. And probably you all know what engagement is, but I’ll tell you because I didn’t know.

 

Kelly McCollum:

And it’s basically, like, the emotional connection that we have to our work. It’s different from satisfaction. You can be satisfied with your work. You can be making a lot of money and have a great pension, but absolutely hate the work that you’re doing. That satisfaction is different. Engagements like, I am inspired to come to work. I love what I’m doing. I’m putting in the extra effort because I want to.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Mhmm. And so this organization did surveys, and we did hundreds of surveys. We did onboarding surveys. We did exit surveys. We did engagement surveys. We did pulse surveys. And I moved through the organization through different roles, and in the end, ended up becoming a consultant because it was really interesting to see how these same factors all had some part to play in whether we enjoy our work or not. And despite the fact that there’s consistencies like leadership and work life balance and all of these things, every culture is very nuanced.

 

Kelly McCollum:

So it’s it you can’t just say go picture leadership stuff. Like, there’s specific stuff around leadership in a culture that needs to be fit. So it’s been interesting. Like, it was a really interesting time there. And when I left, I basically just put that lens on everything I did. I was a leader for a little while, and I thought, oh, let’s test everything I learned as a leader to see if it works. And sure enough, you know, you apply all the principles you learn, and, you know, we had a great turnaround on a digital team. I worked as a software delivery manager.

 

Kelly McCollum:

And I’m not technical at all. So that’s pretty sad, but it showed that I didn’t have to be technical because if you pull out the right leadership skills, you can inspire and motivate your people. So, you know, it’s become a part of who I am. I did end up on a layoff last June. I was working for a crime corporation who had a layoff, and so it was a bit of a time for self reflection. Like, what do I wanna do with my life? I’m getting a little bit older. Should I consider this entrepreneur track? I kinda have my foot into, entrepreneur track? I kinda have my foot in 2 in 2 piles. Do I wanna get a job, or do I wanna start my own company? And so I launched STAY.

 

Kelly McCollum:

And STAY is all about the whole concept of STAY is about retaining your talent. Like, what do you have to do to inspire your talent so you can keep them? And it’s not just about keeping them because you don’t wanna keep uninspired people. Right.

 

Amy Vaughn:

You wanna keep the right people.

 

Kelly McCollum:

You keep and if they’re not inspired, why are they not inspired? Is it them or is it the organization? Like, what’s, like, what’s going on there? Right? So Mhmm. So stay exists to help organizations basically figure that stuff out. And so I really enjoy helping organizations dig deep to figure out what’s going on within their cultures.

 

Amy Vaughn:

That’s fantastic. I love that so much. I think it’s such an important thing. I think because we throughout, I think, the course of the last 6 or 7 years, especially, there’s just been so much disruption within our own day to day lives that workplace cultures. It’s like it’s where work is where we spend the majority of our time throughout the week. Right? And sometimes it’s like that is where we want and need stability. However, if we’re coming to a place that we aren’t finding inspiration or we have a ton of turnover, all of a sudden, that’s just one more factor into disruption, which then leads into a lack of production, and a number of other things that I’m sure we’ll get into here soon. But it’s such an important work, that we’re doing right now or that you’re doing, to what we’re seeing out there in the workforce right now.

 

Amy Vaughn:

So I’m kind of curious about all of the years of experience that you’ve had doing this. What is the most significant shift that you’ve seen in the workplace motivation in workplace motivation, especially in a fast paced industry. So, you know, in our community together with digital, it’s a lot of women in tech and advertising, which are very kind of high pressure, you know, 60, sometimes 70 hours a week jobs.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Yeah. It’s funny. It’s funny thinking back. She was like, in your 30 years, if I go back 30 years, like, technology wasn’t a thing. FAANG wasn’t a thing. STEM, we didn’t talk about that. Like, we like, tech wasn’t a thing when I started working. Like, we were I knew that there’s gonna be a lot of when I was growing up, there’s a lot of that happening because it was just like, it’s a different world.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Like, it’s absolutely insane how much things have changed since I started working in 1992. I was really excited because my first job was with an NHL team. And I just thought that was like, if FAME was cool back then, that was cool. Right? So I love that. It was a great first, it was a great first opportunity. But, like, one thing like, there’s a few a lot of things that have changed. But I think when it comes to motivation, the biggest shift I’ve seen is the flip from focusing on extrinsic motivation. So things like money promotions

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Like those tangible carrots, I guess. Dan Dan Pink, if you’ve read his book, Drive, he talks about carrots and sticks. Like, extrinsic motivators, carrots and sticks. Right? And that was the only focus back in the day, if you will. And over the years, like and more and more and more, we’re hearing a lot more about intrinsic motivation. And intrinsic motivation, it all comes from within us. And, again, if you , if I can quote Dan Pink, things like autonomy, mastery, purpose, sense of belonging, These are the things that really make people connect to their work, and people long to connect to something. This is why you see people who play video games for 15 hours a day.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Yeah. They just wanna get better and better at it. Right? Or, you know, why do you take up an instrument? Or people who contribute to Wikipedia, like, why are you giving them your free mindshare? It’s because you wanna be part of something bigger. So it’s a huge shift. It’s completely different from how it was. Like, when I first started working, it was very command and control. You do your work. You listen to your manager.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Flexibility meant you could start 5 minutes late. Like, there was no flexibility. Right? It’s just so seeing this shift and seeing this shift in motivation has been, like, super inspiring for me. It’s really interesting to see how much things have changed. I’m super curious to see how things change in the next 20 years.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah. I very much agree. And I think you almost see that the economy even playing out within companies, corporations, and then within, like, leadership teams and, like, incoming talent oftentimes because they think they’ve got whatever they’ve got in spades, but they don’t realize, like, they’re dangling the wrong carrot. And I do. David Pink is a great great author. Great book. It’s a good recommendation there.

 

Kelly McCollum:

The only exception to intrinsic motivators, I think, are salespeople. So I think salespeople are genuinely driven by

 

Amy Vaughn:

Wired a little different there. They’re like But even so, I think but even so, some of the best salespeople, I think, out there are the ones that do truly believe in what they’re selling.

 

Kelly McCollum:

You know,

 

Amy Vaughn:

it’s not just about, like, gaming and making the most and winning the most. I mean, that is a part of it. But at the end of the day, the ones that even excel right. Yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

The ones that are selling them more. Even in sales, even though it’s money money money, it’s not is it money or is it better than everybody else and I’m winning and I’m you know? There’s a little more going on.

 

Amy Vaughn:

There’s something deeper there. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now these are all great points, and I agree. I think there’s gotta be this kind of, reckoning or a little bit of a level setting or, you know, companies understanding those intrinsic motivators and how important they actually are, but then also realizing it’s like it’s not just achieved with a happy hour.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Well and it’s also, like, understanding, like, people I hate. I hate the words soft skills and EQ and all of this talk about that. Like, as a shrewd business person, even if you don’t give a crap about your people, like, let’s say you are just a narcissistic individual who only wants their own success. You need to care about your people Because if you build into your people and you inspire your people, that is when your business is gonna be successful. It’s you know, so even for those who don’t like it, I hate thinking that way. But you know what? 17% of CEOs are narcissists. So, you know, call it like

 

Amy Vaughn:

Interesting.

 

Kelly McCollum:

5% of the population are narcissists, 17% of CEOs.

 

Amy Vaughn:

I don’t know why I was laughing. I shouldn’t be surprised.

 

Kelly McCollum:

You gotta talk to their business sense. And so it does make strong it’s good human thing to do, but it also makes really good business sense to care about inspiring your people. They will drive business results.

 

Amy Vaughn:

That’s interesting. I love that. Well, you know, again, we pulled it out. You started you, you started it as, like, the whole data. I love data. And so I’m curious. You said 17% of CEOs are narcissists, 5% of the population are. It’s like, okay.

 

Amy Vaughn:

How has your approach to data driven decision making evolved over the last 12 years in HR and culture? Like, these kinds of insights, I think, are actually really important, right, to bring certain things to light to help people understand. How else would you build upon that?

 

Kelly McCollum:

Love data. Data data is, like, I have been interested in data for as long as I can remember. It’s factual. It’s objective. You can trust it. When I was in my early days, I studied marketing. I couldn’t do digital marketing now because I don’t have a single digital marketing skill. But back in the day, it was more about market research and human behavior.

 

Kelly McCollum:

So I did a lot of surveying. I mean, I remember doing a study with one of the banks about whether people like their cafeteria food. I mean, it was early surveying, but it exposed me early to, like, the voice of people and how strong and how important it is to listen to the voice of your people. And so, so as long as I can remember, that’s been an interest. And so it evolved over the years. I think I remember talking to you about social committees. So we do little surveys with social committees. Well, what kind of event would you prefer? Would you like a boat cruise? Would you like a Christmas party? Would you like a golf tournament? You know, you do those simple surveys.

 

Kelly McCollum:

And then I remember evolving a little bit and maturing my surveys a little bit. And then when I actually got to the engagement shop, I learned, like, that you could actually use data to measure motivation, and that’s not something I would have considered. But if you play into human psychology and what drives human behavior and the research lens, it actually was a really perfect fit that I just didn’t see when I was in school. Right? So I think as it’s evolved so in the engagement shop, I learned about the surveys and the data, and that was important and it inspired me. You need to understand just what the different factors are that impact employee experience and employee engagement. But as I’ve evolved, I’ve I’ve I’ve probably implemented a lot more qualitative data. Yeah. So, like, I still think surveys are amazing.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I think you need them. I think you gotta be careful with them. If you don’t act on them, people get really bad. People talk about survey fatigue, but there’s no such thing as survey fatigue. It’s a lack of action fatigue. You can ask me every day for my opinion. But if you ask for my opinion, I’m gonna keep giving you my feedback. People are gonna stop giving you their feedback if you don’t do anything with it.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Exactly. What’s the point if you’re not gonna listen?

 

Kelly McCollum:

Good point. So from the data queen, telling you right now, if you’re not gonna action whatever it is you’re asking, just don’t. Yes. Don’t don’t do it. But then you’ve got, like, the power of interviews and focus groups, and that became really interesting. So I started doing a lot more of that. And I think at this point in my life, I think I’ve done probably over 1500 stay interviews, exit interviews, and it’s, like, just so fascinating when you talk to people. Mhmm.

 

Kelly McCollum:

People are always like, how do you get people to talk? I’m like, well, just ask some questions. It’s actually not that hard. If you show a genuine interest, like, people know if you’re genuine. So if you’re just if you’re, you know, you’ve got your paper and you’re reading your questions and you’re making notes and you’re not engaged, like, people are not gonna give you the real them. So there’s gotta always be this sort of genuine interest. And I’m a curious person. I ask why. I ask the next why.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I ask the next why. And I find when you do that, you don’t actually put people on the spot because if you’re

 

Amy Vaughn:

Uh-huh.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Engaged, like, they actually wanna talk. And when people start sharing their lived experiences, it’s, you know, it’s not like, oh, I never get I know no one ever pays attention to my work. It’s like, well, what makes you, like, what makes you say that? Well, you know, when I did this project for my boss, I didn’t get any feedback. Oh, what kind of feedback would you have liked? Right? So the deeper you dig, the more you get to know what the real root of these problems are. And then you can sort of theme the qualitative themes, combine them with the data, and you’ve got a really good picture of what you need to do to improve, you know, the workplace to make it a good workplace. Right?

 

Amy Vaughn:

I love it. I love it. I think that’s so important too. You know, I think it’s one of those things. You know, surveying feels like such a great, blanketed way to reach so many people, but how many companies don’t sit down and talk to people until it’s exit interview time? And do what you just said there, which is ask why and then ask why again and ask why again or what what what. You just kinda ask the one question and take the answer for what it is, and you don’t go deeper. I love that advice. That’s great.

 

Amy Vaughn:

That’s fantastic. Ugh. Such good stuff. And I love that idea of data to measure motivation. That’s another rabbit hole I could go down, but for the sake of time. And live listening audience, don’t forget. You can always ask questions too, but that’s definitely got me curious. Let’s see.

 

Amy Vaughn:

We often hear about the importance of company culture. Obviously, we know we know it’s important. In your view, what is the relationship between culture and motivation? And I would want to ask this from the lens of particularly for women in male dominated fields because I think when we’re asking this as ladies, deep down, we kinda know why we’re asking this.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, culture, culture means different things to different people. Mhmm. So I talk about culture, it’s the way we do things. Right? It’s the way people naturally do things. So, you know, we have cultures within our cities, we have cultures within our homes, we have cultures within our churches, and we have cultures within our organizations. And sometimes organizations are very intentional about culture and sometimes they’re not. Doesn’t mean they don’t have a culture.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right? So you pick up the way people do things. A good example like, in culture can change overnight too. Yeah. Think about Elon Musk taking over Twitter. Right?

 

Amy Vaughn:

Like Yep.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Like, I didn’t think it was possible to screw up an organization

 

Amy Vaughn:

case study. A lot of us,

 

Kelly McCollum:

But guess what? You can’t. Right? So culture, like, culture is the collective, like, what you’re seeing going on around you, and it influences you. It can motivate you. It can demoralize you. So why is that important for women or any diverse Yes. You know, populations? Like, if you think of we have an inclusive culture, if we have an inclusive culture, when you look at senior leadership, you see black women. So if you’re an employee in a company where you see black women in leadership, you think, maybe I can be a black woman in leadership, and it inspires me. On the other hand, if all you see are middle aged white men across the entire organization, and you’re a person of color or a woman or a young person or neurodivergent or whatever, you know, whatever your difference is, that’s gonna be demoralizing because you’re gonna think, I don’t fit in here.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right? So this is where the concept of inclusive cultures are really important. You know, cultures that can empower a personal sense of accomplishment are also very powerful. Right? That’s for and that’s for anybody. But I think specifically for women, like, in male like, STEM, science, tech, engineering, you know, math. Like, it’s hard to find women interested in like, we just I don’t know why it is, but women just don’t go into those trades as much. Is it because they see that people aren’t in those trades? Like, as a young kid, you don’t see a bunch of people doing it. Like, you’re just, is it influenced? Is it nature? Is it nurture? I don’t know what the answer is to that. And I feel like if we saw more representation, we might actually see more people more women go into, like, sciences and engineering.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right?

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah. No. I definitely agree. There is absolutely something to see, be it a factor. But I think what’s absolutely key is to excuse me. Moment there. What is absolutely key to what you just said there, Kelly, though, is and I don’t know if everybody expected that answer or not or they were really noticing it as much as maybe I did in the moment. But when I said, how would you define culture? You said, the way you do things.

 

Amy Vaughn:

You didn’t say your mission or your they’ll talk the way you talk your voice. You didn’t say the words on your walls. You know? All that bullshit that they put up to say, like, this is who we are. This is what we do, who we are and what we do. It is not the talk. It’s a walk. It’s the systems that you put into place to create a space for inclusion. So if you say you’re inclusive, then you create inclusion by executing it, not by saying it.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Yeah. Yeah. If you need to put it on the walls, it’s because you’ve forgotten what you’re supposed to be doing, and that’s a problem.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. I’d love that so much. I love your definition. It is absolutely the way you do things, and it goes down to all of your processes from onboarding to people exiting to just, like, even your day to day stuff. And it’s like, how often have you really looked at what you think is your culture and then said, okay. Well, this is our desired culture, and this is the way we’re doing things.

 

Amy Vaughn:

How are those things matching up?

 

Kelly McCollum:

It’s interesting you say that. Like, I get really frustrated with value exercises. I think they’re really important if you actually use them

 

Amy Vaughn:

Move them.

 

Kelly McCollum:

But, like Right. Like, all these organizations that seem to pick from 30 or 40 words, and their one word values, integrity. It’s like, really? That’s your value.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

You gotta tell people that it’s like, really, that’s not like a baseline expectation you have to promote integrity. But the customer is the one that gets me the most. Right? Because, like, customer focus is, like, obviously super important. But I work for an organization that said that they were customer focused, but they had like, if you were a customer calling in, there were, like, 15 different systems that you would have Mhmm. Or what you were doing. Like, it was just it was not a good customer experience. So calling yourself customer focused was kinda like a load of crap. But then you look at an organization like Zappos, and I love Zappos because they are textbooks.

 

Kelly McCollum:

That’s what you do for culture. Like, you live your values. And for them, customer focus, they called it, like, delivering wow service. And I had an incident. They don’t they don’t sell it to Canada anymore, probably because they can’t deliver wow service, would be my guess. But when they did deliver, I remember calling them. I I ordered a pair of shoes online. Mhmm.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Came in at the wrong size, and I should’ve known better. I knew I was a 6a half. I bought the 6. It was stupid me. Anyway, so I I I call them, and on the first ring, somebody answers. Like, okay. All of a sudden, that’s weird. Right? I told them about my little situation, and they said, well, what size do you need? Oh.

 

Kelly McCollum:

So they send me the shoes, and they say, when you get a minute, send the other ones back. Right? Like, you know, we’ll send you, we’ll send you postage so you can, like, don’t have to worry about the charges. I was like, wow. And I did. That’s what I said. I said, wow. And I’m like, oh, damn it. That’s exactly why I love that, and I love the stories about how good they are at what they do.

 

Kelly McCollum:

And I use that when I talk to organizations about their values. I’m like, don’t make it a value if it’s not really valuable. And then people talk about aspirational values. I hate like, it’s not if it’s not if you’re not doing it, it’s not part of your culture. So, like, I don’t know. It’s it’s and I can understand cultures wanting to evolve and change into better things, but I think you kinda can’t claim it until you are it? Right?

 

Amy Vaughn:

I agree. I agree. Yeah. You’ve gotta be making the strides and doing the things before yeah. I agree. I agree. Yeah. Wholeheartedly so much, hence getting all choked up. I was like, ah, I’m gonna get in a soapbox.

 

Amy Vaughn:

I feel this all so much because I think it is a great cautionary tale for those who are on the job seeker market right now, especially for those who are in those marginalized spaces. They don’t feel always comfortable seeing, heard, and valued and are extra cautious when they’re looking because they want to walk into spaces where they just aren’t gonna fall into those kinds of traps, and they wanna work for the kinds of companies that they are aligned to because, you know, as we’re talking about intrinsic motivation, that’s what people are wanting. So, yeah, we’re talking about not just retention, but for recruitment, and people can see through that. They’ve got that BS meter on. And just because you have those words on the walls, guys, it’s not it’s not gonna necessarily it’s not gonna necessarily pan out if you’re not living them out. So if you’re gonna put them on the walls, you better really actually be living them. Yeah. And better yet.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right? So, like, people know when people are being disingenuous. Like, so proud of your people. Right? They’re just fine for that.

 

Amy Vaughn:

And then, honestly, at the end of the day too, it’s like, I think people are smart enough nowadays too. It’s like you don’t even put them on the wall. Like, I should just be able to walk in and feel it and see it and look around the room and know ahead of time. Like, you even said like, I mean, I know Zappos kind of puts it out there, but, like, the fact that you even stated it without even realizing it is so so funny. It’s like spot on.

 

Kelly McCollum:

And I didn’t know that about them at the time. Like, I read about like, that was, like, years probably before I even knew much about engagement. And then when I discovered all these things about culture, I’m like, oh,

 

Amy Vaughn:

this is

 

Kelly McCollum:

not cool. I remember these guys. Like, it’s to begin to go, wow. Love it.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yep. It’s all in the execution. It sounds silly, and I feel like it’s something that companies still make that mistake of just thinking it’s like this very top of the, you know, funnel or, you know, top of the leadership type of exercise, and somehow it’ll just trickle down. It’s like, no. You gotta drill all the way down. Getting the leads with that. Alright. Let’s get into this whole aspect of working remote and hybrid because I mentioned that earlier in the intro as well.

 

Amy Vaughn:

So another thing that we’re a lot of are kind of working through and dealing with as leaders right now. How does this new work landscape impact motivation, and what strategies have you seen work well? Because there are some out there that I hear about that I’m like, oh god. Hallelujah. I don’t work. I mean, I work for myself, so, obviously, I’m not gonna be. I’m holding up my mouse. Nobody can see that on listening to the podcast, but, like, I’ve heard there’s mouse trackers to track how often you have moved your mouse.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Yeah. I mean, that’s just there’s no trust there. Right? Like, well, the remote thing work is killing me. Right? So I thought like, COVID pushed the workforce to the future of work. It pushed it forward, like, 20 years and in, like, overnight. It was crazy. Right? Like, nobody was working. Very few people were working remotely pre COVID.

 

Kelly McCollum:

And then we discovered really quickly that we could. And then people started to really like it for lots of different reasons. Right? I’m a huge fan of remote work. Besides the time savings, my commute used to be 90 minutes each way. That’s an hour and a half a day. Like, that is well, that’s a lot of time to get back into your day. It saves you oodles of cash and right now, the economy is scary. So I mean, every penny you can put back in your pocket that’s important.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I think it’s an amazing equalizer for parents, for working parents, specifically women, because we know despite the fact that men have started to pick up their socks a little bit Yeah. The caregiving still primarily falls on the woman. So remote work equalizes, like, it really levels the playing field. Right? Mhmm. It’s great for the environment. It’s great for flexibility, and I believe flexibility is the future of work. And for employers, it gives them the right to talent. So to me, like, remote work is, like, the second coming.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right? I love it. Mhmm. Yeah. And I think when you tie it to motivational theory, it really really comes into that whole flexibility and autonomy, like, working my way, me getting to choose how I do my work, my flex hours. Like, I think it is that it builds trust in people, and it helps make them feel valued. So Yeah. I think there’s a really positive link between remote work, hybrid work too, I guess, to a certain degree, and, like, inspiration and motivation. I think they tie together.

 

Kelly McCollum:

But there’s a dark side. There’s a shadow side to it as well. And that is, work life can become a blur for some people.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Mhmm.

 

Kelly McCollum:

You’re always on. Like, you’re just you’re just always on. Right? I live in an apartment, so I work remotely all the time. And so at the end of the day, my husband’s like, you need to leave the house. Like, you like, you have

 

Amy Vaughn:

a house. Right?

 

Kelly McCollum:

You have a house for a week. You need to get out of the house. And you get in your own head about that kind of stuff. Right? Yeah. I also think it can impact a sense of belonging, and a sense of belonging again is a huge motivator for a lot of people. But Agreed. I think there’s ways to offset these things. I think there’s things organizations can do to, you know, fill the gaps.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I think it was really intentional. And again, this is another drag is it’s more pressure on leaders. So leaders, you’re already your job’s already hard. Remote work, it’s gonna make it just a little bit harder now, because you need to be managing with enablement, autonomy, and empowerment. You do not wanna be tracking mouse clicks. That’s not gonna inspire, not gonna inspire anybody. But it means you have to set very clear expectations. Right? What is it that you expect your people to accomplish during the day? Mhmm.

 

Kelly McCollum:

What does a smart goal look like? Right? Be really specific about the outcomes that you’re expecting. And if you’re clear about the outcomes and you’re coaching people through them and then they win, they feel this tremendous sense of accomplishment, which when validated with rewards and recognition and, like, hey, I’m affirming that you did the right thing. It just inspires people exponentially. Right? So very clear, very clear goal setting. Like, people do not do well in ambiguity. They don’t. Right. And if you how can you rate anybody’s performance if it’s subjective? Again, data.

 

Kelly McCollum:

You need the data to validate your biases. Right? Because we’re full of bias. Right? So, you know, clear goal setting takes the subjectivity out of a sense of accomplishment, and then people can really feel that. So I think they also need to prioritize communication. Like like, not like weird, touchy feely, micromanaging check ins, but, like, hey. Let’s meet as a team and, like, share a meal together. I’ve had, like, an organization I’m supporting right now. Whenever a new employee starts, we’re all remote. They each send us an Uber Eats voucher, and we all get our little whatever we want, and we hang out for an hour and welcome the person to the organization while we’re eating. It’s so different.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right? Like, there’s different ways to create, community. Right? Uh-huh. The thing to remember too is some in some what becomes challenging if you have a high number of engineers or scientists in your organization, there’s, like, a preference for introversion.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

So how do you find a way to engage introverts without doing this to them? Because, right, doing a lot of this can really suck the energy right out of them. So you’ve gotta be so maybe then camera off makes more sense. Maybe then you’re doing some kind of gamification so that it’s not, like, draining the person. So you really gotta know your people, I think Yes. It is the other thing that you need to think about. So it’s not a one size fits all plan. We’re all different, and what inspires us is different. So that really falls on the leader to figure out, like, the differences for the people on their team, which is why I recommend that most men like, hopefully, managers don’t manage teams much bigger than 8 people because it’s really hard to do that when teams get bigger.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right?

 

Amy Vaughn:

Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. I mean, I always felt that way as well as I was leading teams. And, I mean, luckily, I was never more than maybe 6 or so because I think it is important to kind of understand and know. And for me, it was always creatives, and so it was always for me, at least, it was really important to understand how they were intrinsically motivated and how they were shaped and and either motivated or demotivated by certain types of and ways of receiving feedback because creatives, like, they’re so sometimes precious about their work. If they could shut you down, you know, or be very resistant about, like, what they’re receiving in the way of feedback. And it’s like you really want them to be buying in and moving the work along based on what they’re being given in the way of feedback.

 

Amy Vaughn:

And sometimes it’s just in the delivery that can make the difference, and I don’t think people quite understand that little bit of extra time to get to know the individual and how they work and how they prefer, what their communication preferences are, how they like to receive feedback. Doesn’t mean that you change the feedback. It’s just the delivery, you know, at the end of the day.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Where leadership has changed so much. Right? Like, when I was younger

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Your leader didn’t give 2 craps about what inspired you or Yeah. How you wanted to get recognition, or they would not even give you recognition. Right. It’s all crap. What is all this stuff you’re talking about? It’s ridiculous. Like, just come to work at your job and get paid. That’s what work is all about. Mhmm.

 

Kelly McCollum:

So it is funny that now it’s almost like we need leaders to become psychologists. Right? Yeah. Or coaches or

 

Amy Vaughn:

Coaches. I would agree with the coaches.

 

Kelly McCollum:

We’re like, honestly, like, it’s a it’s we’re putting a lot we’re putting a lot on leaders. Right?

 

Amy Vaughn:

We are. And I honestly would love to see that. I had that epiphany a while back of, like, gosh. It would be so cool to do that. Like, to just go and talk into our own comp like, different companies and just talk about that and help coach middle managers to just become that coaches. Like, really understand. Like, you’ve done the job, you know the role, and you’re not the one doing and executing anymore. You are the one leading and coaching them to that next phase.

 

Amy Vaughn:

And it’s like, if you’re not a good coach, then you don’t really belong in a leadership role. You should just still be doing the doing, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with staying in your craft and doing the doing. And not everybody should be a people

 

Kelly McCollum:

leader. Yeah. I’ll tell you, it happens a lot, especially in tech. Like, tech promotes brilliance. Right? 100%. People promote brilliance. And so these brilliant people who have always been individual contributors and rewarded for their brilliance and their hard work, now they’re like, hey, do you want to be a leader? And they’re like, I guess it’s the next step on the career ladder. I guess I should say yes.

 

Kelly McCollum:

And then you throw them in this. It’s like, oh, and now it’s not about you at all. It’s about everybody else. Yes. So I always think, like, in any organization, you should do, like, a precursor before you put anybody into leadership. So you think you can lead, and then being very like, you know, you’re gonna your focus is gonna shift from you to others. These are all the expectations we’re gonna have in you as a leader. Are you sure you wanna sign up for this? Because Yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Like, it’s not for everybody.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Right? It’s not. And I think too the ways like, you’re talking about motivation, and I realize it’s not, like, one of the intrinsic, and it’s more of the, like, external factors. But I think part of it is, like you said, people who have these gifts and talents as, like, say, a developer this is a great example. My brother-in-law falls exactly into this, and I think I’ve shared this example before. Great, you know, developer. He actually collaborates well with a lot of others too, which is why I can see why they thought maybe they should, you know, give him a full team. But at the end of the day, he deals with a lot of other stress and anxiety in and outside of work, and he’s just not a people leader. But it’s like, okay.

 

Amy Vaughn:

But they dangle a title and a salary in front of you. And then when you stay in your craft, oftentimes, companies don’t build what that extended career looks like. So then it looks okay. The only way to move up or ahead is to stay is to kind of go into this place where I go outside of myself and my natural skills, talents, and abilities and get this other job that isn’t me. So he actually took the job and the role, took the salary, took the pay rate or the promotion, didn’t even make it 6 months, and just basically was like, take the money back, take the title back. I don’t want any of it. Oh, no. Right?

 

Kelly McCollum:

I know. It’s a weird mind shift too, like and and there’s so much pressure. Like, I think, like, LinkedIn, I have a lot of hate relationships with LinkedIn.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

All of us. Because what happens on LinkedIn is, like, all this positioning. Right? I’m making $1,000,000 as an entrepreneur. Everybody quit their jobs and became entrepreneurs. Not every entrepreneur is gonna make $1,000,000. No. But if you and the promotions. Oh, I got a new title.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I got a new title. I left this job and I got an extra $65,000. And everybody just thinks that everybody’s just careers are flying and they’re getting massive salaries and these big titles in, like, 5 minutes. Right? It’s really creative, it’s not like that. That’s just not how it works. Not that nobody’s getting promoted, but nobody gets promoted that fast with those big, big salary increases. So I think there’s so much pressure on the this generation to

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yes.

 

Kelly McCollum:

To fall into that framework that they wanna know what’s my next, what’s my next step? What’s my next step? Where it’s like, okay. Like, if you really wanted to make a lot of money, you know, maybe you should have decided to be an investment banker.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yes. There’s other ways to

 

Kelly McCollum:

make money. Your personality is better than leadership. Right? Like, maybe this wasn’t the track you should have gone in at all, and maybe the next step in career progression is a completely different career. Right? Because if it’s not leadership and you don’t want that, right, like, you gotta check yourself a little bit too, like and and I think people gotta own their own careers and stop expecting organizations to have these perfect little career paths for

 

Amy Vaughn:

1. Yes.

 

Kelly McCollum:

But at some point, you’re gonna hit a wall. Right? I’m at a wall. Like, I do this really weird, niche-y stuff. I’m an employee engagement culture expert. Like Yeah. Where do I get promoted? Right? Yeah. Like, what’s my next step? There’s not one. Right? Like, if I don’t like what I’m doing or what I’m earning at the start of my career, then I have to think about what kind of shift I wanna make.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right? I think and as a leader, I think you also have to manage the expectations of your people. So sometimes your expectations are real and you can help them achieve their goals and you can coach them up. And sometimes it’s like, yeah, well, I wanna be a VP in 2 weeks. It’s like, okay. Not gonna happen. Right? Let’s just have a chat about that. Like, you know what? You can, you know, run a 5 km that doesn’t make you a marathon runner the next day. Right? And then that doesn’t make you a professional athlete.

 

Kelly McCollum:

You need to understand the steps to get to where you need to go. And so you yeah.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Go ahead, Sarah. You made so many good points there. So many good points, Kelly. I think it’s such a good moment for those who are listening to really reflect as they kind of are looking to and and moving into and through the leadership space. It’s like I I had somebody ask me this. Like, I’ve been that girl since I was a kid. Like, a natural born sort of leader, always kind of creating little groups and clubs. And, you know, when there’s ever, like, an occasion for somebody to just be kind of voluntary to do something as the leader, it’s always me.

 

Amy Vaughn:

And so she was like, Amy, do you even wanna lead? And I was like, ah, nobody’s ever even asked me that. You know? And so it’s one of those things. Like, I think it is always good to be asking yourself and being curious because at the end of the day, I think understanding where your values lie and where you want to move ahead and move forward will help you make better, smarter choices so that you don’t end up in a place where you get to what you think you thought was what was going to make you happy only to learn that you’re not. So for me, it’s like, yeah, an entrepreneurship, wonderful thing, amazingly fulfilling. I gave myself my title of CEO, but it’s chief empowerment officer. And, yeah, I’m not, I’m no longer focused on climbing any, yeah, I’m not, like, making the 6 figure salary I was as a creative director in advertising, but I’m serving a higher purpose. I’m leaving a legacy because for me, those are bigger parts of my values. And I’m leveraging all my gifts, but that’s you know, it’s different for everybody.

 

Amy Vaughn:

And I agree with you, Kelly. Don’t go down that rabbit hole of comparing yourself to everyone on LinkedIn or Instagram. Take some time and space for yourself.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Comparison is to figure that out. Enjoy.

 

Amy Vaughn:

It absolutely is. And then this will help you, I think, as well. Right? As you understand this as an individual and you’ve done this work for yourself, maybe look to your team if you are a leader and then help them work through that process. Because when you do have a, you know, a new coming in 2 weeks and saying, I wanna be VP of whatever, you can be, why? What is it about this role? So then you’re helping guide them in a more authentic or value aligned way so they’re not kind of blindly going into this whole thing and sacrificing 14 years of their career chasing down maybe the wrong title and opportunity.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Yeah. For the wrong reasons. Right? Yeah.

 

Amy Vaughn:

For the wrong reasons, which leads to things like burnout. Right? So it’s a significant issue, obviously, within many industries, including ours, and we know it obviously manifests very differently for everyone. So I’m kind of curious outside of maybe these kinds of conversations, how could leaders become more attuned to various signs of burnout within their teams, and what strategies do you recommend for addressing them in all the various forms that we see them?

 

Kelly McCollum:

I mean, burnouts like, the burnout is real. Right? Like, people are , they’re still tired from COVID. Right? Some people have some pretty big mental health fallout from Yeah. From the pandemic. I think we’ve got, like, the stress of something a lot, like, a lot of companies are mandating their people back to the office. It’s like, back we go. Right? That is to me, like, taking away something that is so coveted and privileged. To me, it’s like saying to an employee, well, the market’s really bad right now.

 

Kelly McCollum:

So if you tried to leave, you’d get a lot less money. So I’m gonna cut your salary by $30,000. Yeah. And, you know, how inspiring would how

 

Amy Vaughn:

inspiring would that How unmotivating is that?

 

Kelly McCollum:

You’re taking away something that’s really valuable to me. Right. Like, that means, like, the reality is there’s not that many remote companies, like, fully remote companies. I think I read there’s, like, 15%. So it’s not a lot. There’s a lot more before, but people are calling back. The problem with that is they’re gonna pay for that decision.

 

Amy Vaughn:

They are.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Because in 10 years from now, everybody who can be remote will be remote because the workforce will demand it. Yeah. But, for now, people are burned out because their bosses are asking a lot more of them. There’s all these layoffs, right? So people are laid off, so those people are stressed, and the people who are left behind are also stressed because, a, they have survivor’s health, and, b, now they have a lot more work to do because there’s less people to do the same amount of work. So people are stressed there. There’s an infinite amount of whatever is happening at home, you know, children, caregivers, grief, cancer, divorce, like, whatever your life is throwing at you. Like, it is really stressful out there. I I think, like, most people at one point in their life are gonna need some kind of short term disability leave for their mental health.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I think that stress leave is real. Like, it’s happening. And as a leader, like, you can’t do much about what’s happening in someone’s personal life. Right? But you can be aware. So I think, like, a big thing for me is recognizing the signs of burnout means paying attention. And sometimes it’s really obvious. It’s like, if you have an employee who was always really gung ho and now they’re not gung ho, like, oh, that’s interesting. I wonder what’s going on with that.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right? Or, you know, they’re getting increasingly negative or cynical or, you know, all of a sudden, they’re taking more time off because they’re getting, you know, headaches or whatever. Like, I think paying attention to those cues should be the first indicator that something’s going on with your employee. What can you do about it? You gotta be careful about it because, like, again, you’re not the therapist. Right? You’re not there to solve their home problems or whatever. But at work, there are very very real things that you can do. So if you have established a relationship of trust with this employee, and hopefully, all hopefully, all leaders have prioritized that. And building trust is like 3 podcasts of chats. Right? But, I mean, building trust is fundamental for a strong, inspiring relationship.

 

Kelly McCollum:

So if you’ve got the trust, then you’d be able to have those open conversations. Like, hey. I’ve noticed you’ve been blah. Right? Is everything okay? And then hopefully, the employee feels like they’re, you know, I’ve just got so much going on. And then you can work with the employee. Everyone’s an individual. Everyone’s gonna need something different. So it’s like, okay.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Like, would you benefit from a couple of mental health days? Would that, like, would that help? You know, maybe we can flex your hours so that, you know, you have time to go to your son’s baseball game or whatever. Right? Yeah. I think it’s a matter of meeting the employee where they’re at, figuring out what it is that can help them, and seeing if you can enable that as much as you possibly can. Some things are gonna be out of your control, but that might be the time where you do recommend a stress leave. Hey. Like, we have short term disability benefits. Go talk to your doctor. Take care of yourself.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Your job will be here, you know, when you get back. And it’s prioritizing their mental health over your needs as a leader. Mhmm. Right? That can be hard to do.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah. We gotta call it that term for our US listeners because you’re you’re in the you’re in Canada. Right, Kelly? So, like, with that, that term here is not as common as you would think. It’s much more common in the UK and Canada. Stress leave is essentially, yes, folks. You can apply, talk to your therapist, and get short term disability leave for mental health. I first heard this, it wasn’t until, like, probably 2,010. I was and it was because we had been living in the UK and a friend of ours I

 

Kelly McCollum:

I mean, we’ve got very different employment standards. I’m Yes. Knowing how Yes. Fortunately we are here, like, parental leave. Like, we didn’t

 

Amy Vaughn:

Oh god. Yeah. Yeah. We’re lucky to get 6 weeks, if that. Right? That’s ridiculous. It’s sad. It’s pathetic. Yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

No sense. I would be a whole nother. Crazy down there. Come on up together.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Whole another conversate. I know. Right? A whole nother conversation. Depending on how things go in November. It might be, Kelly. But yeah. No. Seriously.

 

Amy Vaughn:

It is it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it was mind boggling to me. Right? Because he had been going through he had, like, a history of some mental health issues, and they were kind of creeping up on him again. And I was talking to his wife, my friend at the time, and she’s like, oh, yeah. Yeah. So and so. He’s on stress leave. I was like, wait. Wait.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Wait. Wait. What? What’s this? She is in 6 weeks. I’m like, wait. I didn’t get that much time to go to have my baby. Stress leaves. Tell me more. And she’s like, well, he just got a note from his doctor, and he’s taking time off.

 

Kelly McCollum:

So okay time off. I shouldn’t overpay for it. Like, short term disability is usually, like, half your pay or whatever. But, I mean, it’s usually something for a short term period for you to sort of get your head together.

 

Amy Vaughn:

To take care of yourself.

 

Kelly McCollum:

What a lot of people end up doing when they have a short term disability is they’re looking for other work. Because they’re not gonna realize that the source of their stress is actually their job. Right?

 

Amy Vaughn:

Their job. Exactly. I mean, yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

That’s not true. Best for your people. And if what’s best for your people is for them to leave, then that’s not a bad thing.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Right. Because they’re not living they’re not probably being, you know, they’re not being as productive or contributing to their maximum because they aren’t happy. And it’s like, if you can’t help that control that or change that, then, yeah, let them go and find somebody who’s gonna be the right fit. And then also, yeah, I loved your note about how that stress can manifest physically, sick days, headaches, migraines, other kinds of undefined pain, and things like that, you know, just being aware of how it shows up in your body is also important. Alright, folks. Keep an eye on the chat. So if you have questions, let us know. Kelly, could you share an example of a counterintuitive insight about motivation that often surprises you with your clients that they’re like, this is how we motivate people, and you’re like, facepalm.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Well, I think the first thing is that you can’t motivate someone. Right? Like, you cannot inject motivation into someone. Motivation comes from within. Right? It’s personal. It’s deeply, deeply personal. And you can’t like, think about your kids. Do your homework. Yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Good luck. Do you think you’re really inspiring them? Right? Like like, you know, like like, it’s gotta come it’s gotta come from within. That said, as a leader in organizations, you can set the conditions that enable motivation as we talked about autonomy, mastery, purpose, all of those things. But, you know, it’ll empower people to tap into their own drive, but it doesn’t guarantee that it will because not like, I have I know people. Mhmm. Purpose, autonomy, mastery, don’t care. I go to work. I get a paycheck.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I got a job. Yeah. I I work to live. I don’t live to work. And some people just, like, you can’t assume everyone’s passionate and motivated and has dreams and design. 100%. Right? And we have to respect that. So you can’t, you can’t make it happen, is what I’m saying.

 

Amy Vaughn:

I love it. That’s great advice. It’s a fantastic answer. I love it. Technology, obviously, I mean, I could throw in the word AI because it’s like, you can’t not say the word AI in any conversation right now. But, that’s one concern obviously as people are kind of working through technology changes within a multitude of industries. But outside of just that, other technological changes, how can leaders keep their teams motivated and engaged, when skills become outdated so quickly? I mean, in our industry in particular, it feels like every other day there’s a new tool out there. So

 

Kelly McCollum:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s hard to stay on top of it. I think, like, it’s tough if you like, there are a lot of employers out there who haven’t kept up with their tech stacks. Mhmm. And so you’re like, as long as you’re there, and if they’re not investing in growth development and they’re not changing their technology, your skills are gonna become dead very quickly. So I think that’s something to be mindful of. Like, sometimes you don’t think about it.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right? Like, oh, wait a minute. I’ve spent 10 years with this organization. Now I’m completely and totally outskilled. Right? So I think, you know, watch for that. I think the other thing is, you know, organizations should be investing in people’s growth and development. So having career conversations with people, like, where do you wanna grow? What do you, like, you know, here’s some skills you might need to develop to get into that next role. Let’s work on an IDP or an individual development plan. So you set some goals, you set some objectives, and then you help people, like, grow those skills.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I personally like AI, like, I love AI. Yeah. I like it, it has helped me write business plans. Like, it is so smart. Like, if I’m like, if you know how to use a good prompt, AI can change your life. Like, I cannot believe the amount of hours it saves me. It’s what. Absolutely.

 

Kelly McCollum:

And I think we can’t imagine how it’s gonna change things for us in the next 20 years any more than when I was working at a record store in the eighties because I imagine that my music would be on my phone. Right? And be free. Like, what? CDs were $35 at the time, and people were still buying vinyl singles for, you know, $3. You can’t imagine what the future is gonna hold. So I think you need to, like, do your best to embrace it and not be afraid of it. Right? Mhmm.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, that I doN I jotted down when you were talking about personal and professional development. I love that. Job seekers ask that question. If you first of all, I’m just gonna get on my, like, mini soapbox here and say, when you’re interviewing and you don’t ask questions in return when they’re at the end of the interview and say, do you have any questions? You’re like, nope.

 

Amy Vaughn:

You’ve answered everything. For me, that’s like, sorry, not hiring. I know that’s really kind of harsh. But to me, it’s like you you didn’t do homework on the company, and you weren’t and then if you if you did and we somehow answered everything, you weren’t actively listening

 

Kelly McCollum:

to anything. To dig into a culture, there’s just so many things. Like, so many things

 

Amy Vaughn:

So many things.

 

Kelly McCollum:

The first thing you should be doing is checking out Glassdoor and seeing what the world has to say about this brand. And then you can use that to guide your interview. Hey. I read about blah blah blah. Glassdoor, what do you think about it? Accurate? What are you doing to combat? Blah blah blah. Like it. Beat no. You don’t wanna be an asshole.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Right?

 

Amy Vaughn:

No. But I got to it. You’re fine.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Yeah. Because if you’re not, if you’re like an antagonist in your interview, you’re not gonna get the job either. Right? You wanna be curious. Intelligence.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah. Genuine and curious and say, like, hey. Listen. I saw these things, and they’re I’ve done that where it’s like, I knew the company culture was not totally in alignment with some of my, like, beliefs, let’s say. And so I was like, okay. Listen. I know this is kind of really where a lot of y’all sit in your leadership, but how much does this actually trickle down into how you do the work and who you do the work with? And I learned that that wasn’t really the case. And I said, well, that’s fine because I think from a moral standpoint, we’re all still aligned, so it’s good.

 

Amy Vaughn:

But I also think, like, there’s a freebie question. If you don’t have a question, just one you can ask is, like, do you have a budget for personal and professional development for your employees? You know, it’s such an important thing because I talk to so many women that come into Together Digital that are investing in themselves for networking, personal and professional development, which is fantastic because they have a safe space where they can kind of ask those questions and not feel like any shame or guilt, and they’re not gonna be judged for asking whatever they ask, and they can learn what they wanna learn and not worry about somebody watching what they’re learning, judging what they’re learning.

 

Kelly McCollum:

You wanna be careful to make assumptions about companies too. Like, I have a friend, like, I think they changed it recently. But in Ontario, there was, like, anybody who was working for any kind of Ontario government institution. They were capital 1% pay raises for 3 years. So if you walk in there and they give you whatever salary and your expectation is every year, you’re gonna get some kind of increase, then you find out you’re only ever gonna get 100%.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Oh, ouch.

 

Kelly McCollum:

If I asked about that. Right? Yeah.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Research. Research. Research. That’s a great point. That’s definitely worth a watch. But, yeah, I think just that having that opportunity, because when women come to us, oftentimes, the thing I hear when I’m interviewing women coming to us and, like, why they found us and why they joined is, like, I feel stuck. I feel stuck in my current job. I’m not moving ahead.

 

Amy Vaughn:

And like you said, they don’t have, you know, any type of growth plan or, you know, relationship with the boss or manager that’s giving them that next step within their career. You know, they feel like they’re spinning their wheels or they don’t feel like they have a sense of direction or purpose, you know, or they wanna pivot into something different, and they’re not being given that guidance or support. And so, yeah, I think finding that is important because I think it seems to be a big part of job satisfaction and motivation.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I think there’s something to be said, though, about like, when it comes to motivation, like I said, you can’t motivate people. People have to be motivated by themselves. So people who just kind of expect that their leader is going to, like Yes. Create a new push. They’re like, here, we’re just going to do this career path. Like, you’ve got to take ownership, right, of your own career.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Thank you.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Like, you own your own career. And if you know what you wanna do in your organization, it’s okay to say, I’m gonna cut my losses and take it, you know, go on my own. I think this is why I got so many entrepreneurs. Right? I’m 100%. Frustrated with, like, the politics of work.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yep. Yeah. No. Thank you for bringing it back to that, Kelly. I, 100% wholeheartedly agree. You have to own it. I think we’ve got an episode a ways back that we talked about being the me e o of your career and really looking at your career as, like, you are the CEO. Like, you are the company.

 

Amy Vaughn:

You are the CEO, and you own your career path and trajectory. Don’t leave it in the hands of some company that you’re gonna work for for 3 to 5 years or maybe even less in most cases nowadays. You have to take ownership. I agree. I love that. Good point.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Thanks for bringing this. I’ll be using that. I love it. Yeah.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Isn’t it great? I loved it. Alright. We, we’re okay. We still got a few more minutes. So I’m gonna go through these two questions real quick, and then we’ll see if we can get to our power on questions if we don’t have any questions from our audience. Now, at this point, we kind of all know that work life balance is an unattainable myth, especially for women. We talked about the stats there, obviously, about work and home life. Could you share a little bit about how we could shift the conversation towards maybe work life integration and if there’s any strategies that you’ve seen others use to navigate those blurred lines between personal and professional life while trying to stay motivated?

 

Kelly McCollum:

Yeah. And, again, I think it’s about ownership. I think this is about a growth mindset. I think this is about owning our lives and making the decisions that are smart for us. And so the first thing I would say is you need to set your priorities and you need to put in some boundaries to protect those priorities. So that can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Like, for me, making like, I talked to you earlier. I’m in an empty nest.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I have time now. But if I like, you know, like, when I want to prioritize something, I always put it in my calendar. So if I wanna work out and I wanna make an hour a day to get a workout, I put it in my calendar and I protect it. And everybody who knows me knows not to book a meeting over Chloe’s workout. She’ll say no. Right? So, like, it’s about, you know, knowing what’s important to you, prioritizing it, and cutting out the noise. Right? And, like, people pleasers really have a hard time with that, but, like, like, people pleasers need like, if I was gonna be developing something as a people pleaser, I’d be learning not to please people so much. Right.

 

Kelly McCollum:

It creates more pressure on Yes. In an already very crazy chaotic existence. It just creates that much more. Right? So, yeah. And I also think, like, I can’t reinforce the concept of movement enough. Like, you don’t need to go to the gym, you don’t need to lift heavy weights, but move. Like, if you sit behind your computer for 8 hours a day and then you go and you hang up with your kids and you haven’t, like, taken a break or gone for a walk, like, it’s gonna impact everything. Like Yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

That little bit of investment in yourself, even if you’re, like, doing a talking conference call. I’ve seen more people do that. Right. I’m on calls and people are walking. That’s weird.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Oh, yeah.

 

Kelly McCollum:

I feel like I guess we can. We’re just having a chat. We’re not like it’s not a, like, a training session or something. Right? So Yeah. Don’t be afraid to do things that are a little bit out of the box. Take care of yourself.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Change it up. No. And I wholeheartedly, again, agree with you about boundaries. And for those of you who do struggle with pleasing people, just understand that there’s a flip side. Boundaries for you benefits everybody. When you create boundaries for yourself, you can actually show up better for others because you’ve taken time for yourself to to relax. And so if you’re worried about letting other people down, keep saying yes, and then watch yourself fizzle and burn out, and then let everybody down because you are so burned out and unable to deliver and honor your commitments because you’ve over committed yourself. And also I’ve learned that by creating my boundaries and also, like, saying no to certain things forces some people within my family to have to show up and be competent and learn that they are competent, and they don’t need me for everything.

 

Amy Vaughn:

So there’s, like, a win-win for everyone when you hold your boundaries, friends. Alright. We’re at the last minute. I’m gonna go ahead and just jump into our power round questions.

 

Kelly McCollum:

K.

 

Amy Vaughn:

So, Kelly, in one word, what is the biggest motivator for most employees?

 

Kelly McCollum:

Winning.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Winning. I like it. Fill in the blank. The thing that every leader should do daily to motivate their team is?

 

Kelly McCollum:

Make them feel valued.

 

Amy Vaughn:

I love it. I agree. What is the most overrated perk that companies think motivates employees but actually doesn’t?

 

Kelly McCollum:

I know you’re gonna think I say ping pong table, but I’m gonna say unlimited vacation.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Oh, you know, I talked to a guy a while back who told me that he did unlimited vacation, and then they started just offering to pay people to go on vacation because it was that bad. They wouldn’t even take it then. So bad.

 

Kelly McCollum:

Now there’s a million reasons on the like, done well, it can be great, but very few companies do it well, and it’s Yeah. Become it yeah. It’s Interesting. Maybe a challenge. It seems like a cool thing, but it’s not cool.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Yeah. Last one then. If you could magically instill one habit in every leader to improve motivation, what would it be?

 

Kelly McCollum:

Active listening.

 

Amy Vaughn:

Love it. This was great, Kelly. Thank you so much. I hope everybody else walks away with some great new inspiration and ways in which they can start to work with and hopefully understand the intrinsic motivators of their team members so that they can start to find motivations within themselves, right, to start to work better and harder and find that sense of purpose and satisfaction in the work that they do. Thank you, Kelly, so much for all of your work and for joining us

 

Kelly McCollum:

for the hour. No. You’re welcome. Thank you so

 

Amy Vaughn:

much for having me. Absolutely. Thank you to all of our live listeners. We love having you here with us. We hope to see you all again next week as we are talking to who we are talking to next week? Let’s see. I’m looking at my schedule, and I’m not seeing on my notes. I think we just scheduled somebody last minute, so I will oh, we’re talking to Pam. We’re talking to Pam.

 

Amy Vaughn:

We’re gonna be talking about, I got a friend, Pam. She is a marketer who has just written some really great short, quick, easy digestive books on AI for marketers that you could, like, kind of be, like, multitasking and looking at her books and then testing out some of these prompts and tools for marketers. So we will, members will share out the links to those books so you can check them out if you wanna take a look at them before we talk to her on Friday, but Pam will be with us next week in the Power Lounge. So I hope to see you all then. Everyone, until then, keep asking, keep giving, and keep growing. We’ll see you then. Bye.