Amy Vaughan:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to our weekly power lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughan, and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. You can join the movement at togetherindigital.com. And today, we are diving deep into the dynamic of so many d’s into the dynamic world of media retail of retail media with a true industry innovator. Deanna Behrens. Did I say that right? Deanna Behrens. Behrens.
Amy Vaughan:
I said it right. Woo hoo. Director of media and strategy at VML, brings extensive experience in the CPG space and has pioneered retail media strategies across seven major retailers. And what makes Deanna’s perspective particularly valuable is her unique ability to translate commerce intelligence into actionable strategies that deliver results. And when she’s, she’s not just witch witnessing the retail media revolution, she is actively shaping it. And we are thrilled to have her to share her insights with our community today. Welcome, Deanna.
Deanna Behrens:
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes. It’s so good to have you here with us. You are local here in Cincinnati, right, where I’m also recording from. And we’ve had you come and speak, right, with our local Cincinnati chapter and just loved hearing all of your wisdom and your experience. You’re so generous with it, which is just so exactly the ML of our Together Digital community and members. So it only felt right and natural to, you know, extend that and bring you into and let you meet our entire group of members from across the world, really. We’re kind of growing, and we’ve got people popping up in different countries too. So to all of our friends who are listening with us live today.
Amy Vaughan:
Remember, you’re always welcome to jump into the chat, ask your questions. This is for you. We wanna know what you wanna hear. Obviously, we have some great questions for Deanna. At the end of the day, we wanna make sure you get what you want out of this conversation. Alright. So before we dive into all the fun media trends, Deanna, I would love to hear more about your journey in becoming the director of media and strategy at VML, and what experiences helped to shape your approach to navigating the CPG and retail space?
Deanna Behrens:
Yeah. So I started off my career in the media side, really learning, like, the traditional, which was a great foundation. Really got in the forefront of what digital is today. It’s so drastically different from when I started. But I still remember I walked into one of my roles with Perfetti Van Mel, so Mentos. Mhmm. And in that role, my boss is like, you’re gonna run the shopper marketing for Mentos and Airhead. And I’m like, what is shopper marketing? I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Deanna Behrens:
And so I was like, cool. What does that mean? And he’s like, go to the Path to Purchase Institute, one of the conferences, and you’ll figure it out. I was like, cool. So I went, and at the time, there were not many retail media networks. It was literally like, hey. How can we get people to think about going in the store to buy the product? And so with Mentos, if you think about it, they’re selling a lot of their products in convenience stores. They’re also selling it in mass, and they’re selling it in grocery. So here I am trying to figure out how I get people at the different moments because, I mean, if I’m gonna advertise in a value chain versus, you know, a c store, it’s so drastically different in how you approach it, how you look at it.
Deanna Behrens:
And then to make things even more complicated, they decided they wanted an overarching approach to add Airheads into the mix. And Airheads and Mentos are two very different. Products and two very different audiences. But we were able to figure out an amazing program that we were able to put to the forefront. We’re able to kind of figure out the nuances between all of them. I was introduced to net or News America at the time, which is now Neptune. It’s so fun to see how things have evolved and changed over the years. Got my first introduction to Dunnhumby, which is now eighty four fifty one, and working with that and trying to have those conversations with the brand team at the early stage.
Deanna Behrens:
Like, hey. You’re actually moving the needle and getting conversions at store. I need you to put money into Kroger, but not put money into your national advertising, which, of course, he was more passionate about because he’s helping to build the ad and Yeah. Getting it out there, and it’s more of an awareness driver. And so seeing that from the early stages, really kind of shaped what I was doing. Because when I left the industry for a couple of years and then came back, we had retail media networks, and I’m like, now what is this? Now what’s happening? And it drastically changed, and it’s evolved over time. And we’ll get to a little bit of that, but, like, COVID definitely made it fast moving, changed it for everyone. And I think the biggest thing that I’ve learned on my journey is you need to be agile.
Deanna Behrens:
You need to Yeah. Ask the questions, be curious, be willing to be challenged, and that will help you get further in your career and just embrace that gray area. Because if I looked at my boss and said no, I would never need to, like, uncover the different things and unlock all the different things that got me to where I am today.
Amy Vaughan:
I love that. And thank you for sharing that story and experience. I think it points out a couple of really important things for, I think, for our listeners is that if you’re in a position of to give opportunity, like, give it. The fact that he pulled you aside and was like, this is the thing you’re gonna go for. Like, that opportunity opened up an entirely new career path for you. Right? And here you are doing it for so many important brands. So the opportunity is huge. Also, your willingness to push aside the self doubt, I’m sure that we all feel. Right?
Deanna Behrens:
Oh. And say There’s many of those.
Amy Vaughan:
I am gonna roll up my sleeves and I’m going to learn and I’m going to grow. So you pointed out flexibility And really, I think too, embracing uncertainty. Right?
Deanna Behrens:
Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
I mean, a part of succeeding is failing, but so often, how many times do we let good potential opportunities go by because we just don’t think we’re quite enough yet.
Deanna Behrens:
Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
I love, love, love that you, like, stepped up into it, and you’ve run with it. And now, you know, here you are. So, yeah, as you mentioned, you know, retail media, it’s kind of been slow rolling, but it really started coming on the scene, you know, in 2010, the February, whatever we’ve called those. I know. Right? From your perspective at the forefront of this evolution, what fundamental shifts have you witnessed that marketers need to understand or could understand better?
Deanna Behrens:
I think the biggest thing that a lot of people are starting to really see as, RMNs really come into the play is it’s not and I kind of alluded to this with my example of the national ads versus the localized, retailer specific ads. Mhmm. It’s all about, like, how do I reach that consumer? What is that consumer playground? Where is the most interactive place they can interact with? What is that consumer journey? And how do I reach them? It’s not like, hey. Brand is now awareness and then, retail media’s conversion and consideration. It’s not that anymore. It’s all Yep. Very fluid. And I think COVID really streamlined that and really pushed that forward.
Deanna Behrens:
And if you think about it today, like, I have used this so many times that I can be sitting there watching a TV show, and then all of a sudden, my TV is blown up. And all the way around, it has a QR code, and I’m buying a product that I had no intent when I sat down or even thought about buying. Mhmm. And I’ve bought it now because it happened to be popped up. Or it could be when I’m even scrolling and standing in line, you know, waiting for a concert. Like, I 100% buy something while I’m standing in line. Like, it is so fluid and so changing that if you aren’t willing to understand that journey, willing to kinda make those divides and being flexible, I think that is something that is really, really missed, and something that we have to be very cognizant of as we’re being more marketers. It’s definitely consumer centric versus sales focused anymore.
Amy Vaughan:
Sure.
Deanna Behrens:
It’s all about the consumer and what the consumer needs.
Amy Vaughan:
Finally, they know. Right? I just feel like that’s, like, been a drum we’ve been beating some of us for a very long time of, like, what does the consumer want? What does the consumer need? They drive purchases, but we can’t just sell them to them like that. We need to know what they’re like, why they’re buying, what they’re buying, when they’re buying it to your point. Right? And I think that is another funny thing. Just within this digital marketing space, I just laugh about QR codes. Man, how long have we been talking about QR codes?
Deanna Behrens:
I remember it, like, when I was at Chiquita, and I was like, well, let’s put a QR code on the banana, and it did not work at all. And now it’d be like, yeah. Let’s do it. It’s totally work. People use it all the time.
Amy Vaughan:
Everybody gets it. Well, and it took a couple of things. Right? It took, I think, COVID. Right? Because restaurants started using them instead of, like, menus. And then also the technology. Right? Before it used to be, you had to upload an app, some random app to your phone. You’re like, I don’t wanna upload anything. No. It’s native to our phones and our cameras. So the problem was solved. But, yeah, I do love that. That’s a game
Deanna Behrens:
changer when that happened. It was just like, oh, I don’t have to do an app, and I don’t have to, like, go through something. And
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Absolutely. So, yeah, it is funny. And I do think that’s, like, a really great thing to consider to keep continuing thinking about. Right? Like, how is even just our, like, native, our phones and other technologies, our watches, all that stuff working? Because like you said, those are opportunities. I think, like, about, like, Waze and Maps and things like that and how they’re plugging in advertising, and it’s all geofenced based on where I’m at. I’m sitting at stoplights. Like, hey, there’s a Wendy’s. Yep. 2.3 miles ahead. Right. Like, oh, go ahead.
Deanna Behrens:
Exactly. Like, if you think about it, like, even as you journey into a grocery store nowadays, the very first thing you do as soon as you park is check your phone to see if you missed anything. Yep. And then you go into the store. And there’s a lot of advertising opportunities that people are missing if they’re not taking into that consideration and that journey. Mhmm. Because, hey. I have you as an active audience.
Deanna Behrens:
Like, why am I not reaching that? Right. And I think that’s it’s just, again, thinking about the little things. Because, like, when I started, it was, okay. Let’s create our persona. And Mary homemaker Mary is at home, and she is going to be listening to the TV while she’s getting ready. And then she’s gonna listen to the radio on her way to drop off the kids. And now it’s like, okay. I can do it on the phone.
Deanna Behrens:
I can do it on their watch. Like, what’s the other thing? You know? And I think, in my opinion, like, I think the one that’s really embraced it, which is very weird to say this, is more of that convenience channel. If you go into a convenience store
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Deanna Behrens:
You’re seeing a lot more of those more innovative ways. Like, I went to fill up my gas the other day, and SPCA had an ad on the actual gas tank itself. And I’m like, okay. I haven’t seen a gas tank wrap before.
Amy Vaughan:
Right.
Deanna Behrens:
I’ve seen all kinds of gas station advertising, like the header cards and, you know, the pool, but I’ve never seen it wrap. So I was like, that’s kinda cool.
Amy Vaughan:
Fun. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Yeah. I love all those kinds of creative strategies and ways
Deanna Behrens:
It’s just fun.
Amy Vaughan:
To get involved. Because like you said, I love that. I hope we pull that as a quote. Its brand is not known. It hurts to hear that for how much time and love we put into brands and branding, but it’s absolutely true. Like, you have to actually get it out into the world and in front of the right people at the right time. Yeah. And because, again, our attention is so in so many places, it almost has to be Mhmm. In an unexpected way and or a really convenient way. That’s the other thing I was going to mention is that I also feel like in an era I don’t I might be getting ahead on my questions, but, like
Deanna Behrens:
It’s alright.
Amy Vaughan:
I have an era where we’re, you know, dealing with a lot, like, a lot less access to first party data data, cooking, all of that. I think, like, there’s an exchange opportunity. Right? Like Mhmm. If you’re willing to make things more convenient for me, I’m probably willing to give you more information. Do you feel like that’s the case on your end? Percent. That’s just me personally.
Deanna Behrens:
It’s so changed. And, like, you constantly have to think about it. Like, I remember, and this is totally dating me, but, like, when I would get my phone updates, I would always go through every single app to see what updates changed. Now it’s like, I don’t have time for that. So I’m sure it’s tracking me more than I realized.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
And when I mentioned tracking, I think it was part of our discussion back in February. Mhmm. Everyone’s like, yeah. I went online, and I looked at how much I was being tracked, and I had to make a whole bunch of changes.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
And I think people are just so used to having it be an easy era. And, like Mhmm. If I need something, I need it now or I can get it now. I can find the information. I’m like, oh, I have this whatever, and I need to Google it. Google is, like, the everyday thing, but you don’t realize how everyday it’s changing, and there’s always something else being added and adjusted. I mean, AI has taken off like crazy. And so what are they doing with AI to make sure it’s getting there? But I think it’s also trying to be smart about all the new technology
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Deanna Behrens:
And embracing it the way you need to and being very true to the brand. Because if you’re not true to your brand and your foundation, then you’re gonna have problems. Yeah. And that’s that problem is gonna rear its ugly head multiple times until you step away and create that foundation of what you’re trying to stand for and how you’re approaching it. Yeah. And I think that’s the other thing that’s going on in the era today is, like, what do you stand for? What is that foundation? Like, if I don’t know that and, I mean, when I started, it was like, oh, let’s create a social media persona and create sometimes we’d actually have a whole packet of, like, what how do you talk about it on this channel versus that channel? But a lot of places don’t have that baseline. Like, with a lot of places that I’ve started, they’re like, what are you talking about? Why would we need that? I’m like, why wouldn’t you need that? Like
Amy Vaughan:
Right.
Deanna Behrens:
You never know what’s around the corner, and you just have to be prepared for anything. Right. And things that you don’t even realize were a thing.
Amy Vaughan:
Well, I’m not gonna imagine too, right, with all things retail. Trust and loyalty, right, are such a huge priority for brands, especially within the CPG space. You don’t want them to have to keep reconsidering every week. Right? You want them to go and grab your product every week. And in order to do that, I think you have to have some sense of consistency. So I think that’s such a great point there too that I just wanted to elaborate on before I go to my next question is that, yeah, brands, if you’re not acting in alignment with your values from the start and you’re just shifting with the sands or the winds of time or whatever it is that’s going on, like, you’re actually doing more harm than good. Yeah. Because I do think too that’s a whole another discussion.
Amy Vaughan:
Actually, for those who are listening, who are in the Detroit area, actually, on the fourteenth, we’ve got all of our meetups. So Cleveland’s meet or no. Columbus is meeting in person. Cincinnati’s meeting again in person in Detroit. I’m gonna make the trip up to Detroit and see them, and we were prepping for the panel and having this exact conversation. You know, the customer journey, it has to be more frictionless than ever. And then, again, like, people want to buy from brands that you feel that they’re in alignment with. And if you’re not listening to them, then, yeah, it could dig you a hole for sure.
Amy Vaughan:
Let’s talk a little bit about the relationship between brands and retailers because it has changed. Right? I feel like it’s almost, like, flip flopped the roles a little bit. And, like, from what even I remember and, again, I’ve been more on, like, the digital marketing and advertising side, but I’ve also worked on, like, P and G and and ConAgra and, Smucker’s. So very much kind of have heard the stories. I’m really curious to know, you know, how has those relationships changed? How are you seeing some of the more successful CPG companies adopt their approaches, to, like, those relationships, to those partnerships?
Deanna Behrens:
I think it’s very fascinating because we’re in an era where you’re having retail media networks really , and I think this is something as an agency you get lost with, really.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Deanna Behrens:
Because you’re working for your client and say your client is, ConAgra. Right? Mhmm. And ConAgra is then calling on Kroger, and that’s their customer. And then you’re working with eighty four fifty one, and that’s technically a vendor partner for you, but it’s really technically because they’re owned by Kroger. Yep. They’re a customer. So it becomes this whole big thing. And the thing that’s interesting is RMNs are starting to try to get more alignment with their parent company.
Deanna Behrens:
Are they close to 100% being there? No. Of course not. But they’re trying, they’re making small strides to that. And so they’re becoming a little bit more intentional with, like, their JVP commitments, their upfronts, their any commitments that they need. But at the same time, as the customer side and so the brand side, there’s also that commitment so you can stay on the shelf and, you know, that merchandising commitment that you have to adhere to. So it’s like trying to weigh and balance the merchandising commitment with the marketing commitment, and it gets very tricky very quickly. And I think what’s probably going to happen, and I’m seeing some of these actually happen. Successful, I don’t know.
Deanna Behrens:
I think we’re still in that test and learn, era, if you will, if I’m gonna push back on our retail media network and say, no. We’re not gonna hit this crazy number that you’re giving us because the number is always growing off of what you spent versus what you committed to. And you have various different things. It could be innovation that’s coming out. It could have been, you know, price increases that weighed into this. Yeah. And so it’s making it harder, and all the numbers are doing is going up and up and up and up. And I think retailers are starting to realize that they need to be a little bit more strict or not strict, but less strict on what they’re trying to do to kinda lower that expectation because the expectations are becoming astronomical.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
And almost unapproachable. And I think the ones that actually partner and have those honest conversations and actually have those JVPs Mhmm. Are the ones that are moving things forward. But even then, I’ve been in many JVPs that are not the most effective of conversations, and the partnership is not really there. It’s more of like, he said, she said, and it gets crazy. But then the ones that are like, okay. This is what I can do, and this is where I’m willing to meet you. And then kind of showcasing and weighing the pros and cons, I think those are the ones that, you know, like, hey, we’re willing to test this.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
Are the ones that are starting to be more successful?
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Deanna Behrens:
But it’s also harder because you’ve got the smaller brands that aren’t even at the table, and it’s only the big brands paving the way. So Right. Some of those are successful and some of them are not successful. So Mhmm. It’s an interesting dynamic, and it’ll be interesting to see. I think they’re starting to get some shifts. Mhmm. I’m definitely seeing that across a couple different retail media networks and how they’re shifting things.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Deanna Behrens:
But at the same time, it’s a unique environment to be in, and it’ll be interesting. Yeah. To see if the pushback from brands actually makes the retailer kinda come down a little bit a little. With and make it more realistic.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. It’s been really interesting to watch because I’ve been saying so, like, I used to work on Gillette, for example, and direct to consumer. It’s like, it used to be, like, the big brands, big CPG names, they rolled the shelf space. They got the premium spots. You know, they obviously have the means, the budget, everything.
Deanna Behrens:
Oh, yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
But then all of a sudden, you start to see that you’re seeing these disruptors, which come in the form of direct to consumer brands to start with. So, like, Harry’s is a great example
Deanna Behrens:
Oh, yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
You know, of a direct to consumer brand to start only online sales and then eventually worked into retail. And it’s so funny because then I was actually working on Gillette at a time when they were like, how do we get DTC off the ground? We gotta do it fast. You know? And so it’s just really interesting to see that kind of change in dynamic. Oh, yeah. And so I was kind of curious, you know, considering the fact that direct to consumer is still, like, a thriving and growing thing, it’s definitely disrupted those traditional retail relationships. How do you see DTC strategies influencing retail media, and how can established brands, like maybe some of our clients, adapt these approaches into, within their existing retail partnerships?
Deanna Behrens:
Well, I think in order to really kind of embrace that DTC mentality is you really have to, like, make sure you’re working your data. You’re working that personalization, and you’re kind of, like, being really flexible. Because if you think about DTCs, they do a lot more if they’re willing to take risks.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Deanna Behrens:
Whereas the bigger brands don’t wanna take the risks as much. They’re wanting to do the tried and true. Maybe maybe have a test and learn the budget, maybe not. Yeah. Whereas d to c is like, you wanna test and learn something? Sure. We’re gonna we’re all in. Like, we have nothing to lose but to keep trying. I mean, I know I’ll watch, like, Shark Tank, and it’s fun to watch things on Shark Tank and then, like, see it come to life in real life afterwards.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
And it’s and it kind of is influential. It’s like, what have they been doing? And I think it’s thinking outside of the box. It’s being flexible. It’s really kind of leaning into that data, that personalization, and taking it to the forefront and not being scared to try something. Yeah. And I think the d two c has that really mapped out. Are they successful in some of the things they’ve done? No. Yeah. But there’s a lot of things they are doing. It’s very grassroots. And I think we forget about the grassroots technology and the opportunities that the grassroots provides.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Deanna Behrens:
I know when I started, I was like, hey. Let’s talk about grassroots. Now it’s like, I don’t hear that word ever anymore. And I think d two c embraces it because they have to be scrappy. Yeah. And they don’t have as many dollars. So it’s like, if I’m gonna do marketing, this is what I’m gonna do. And if it doesn’t work, I’m gonna try this.
Deanna Behrens:
Yep. Whereas brands are constantly like, I wanna keep doing what I’m doing. But after a time, that starts kinda flatline. Yeah. And if you’re not constantly trying something different, you’re not gonna keep moving forward. And I think that’s something that the number one thing that you can see can 100% influence the brands is try something new.
Amy Vaughan:
They are. They really are.
Deanna Behrens:
Embrace the ambiguity. Mhmm. Embrace the difference.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Yeah. I’m sorry, Gillette. One more blade isn’t gonna cut it. Exactly. I love you guys. Love you guys, but it ain’t and it’s crazy because this all happened. Gosh. I think this was back in 2011, ’20 ’12, I think. Mhmm. Or maybe just after that. So, I mean, it’s not even been ten years, and I just even remember, like, the just the sheer amount of disruption. And then, again, like, once you see it, you can’t unsee it. I would start to look around and be like, okay. Yeah. The Honest Company. They were DTC First.
Deanna Behrens:
Oh, huge.
Amy Vaughan:
Power Shave Club. Like, there’s so many brands now that are doing that, like, testing and learning, being nimble, agile, getting their product. And because they’ve got their customer right, and then they’ve got the power to go in and be like, we want how we want shelf space. You know? Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
Well, and I think the other thing is they are really embraced, like, their persona, and they know their brand heritage. And I think that’s really key. Because if you think about the ones that you’ve named, all of them, you can pretty much say they stand for this, and they stand for that. And it’s not ambiguous of, like, it could stand for this, and it could stand for that. Like, I know, in my time at Mentos, like, we changed our brand position so many times. Oh. You know, because we were trying to find the right niche. And I have since then, it’s changed.
Amy Vaughan:
Sure.
Deanna Behrens:
And so it’s fascinating. You have to change because it doesn’t always stay the same because each generation is different.
Amy Vaughan:
Right.
Deanna Behrens:
And how they approach things is different. But I think at the end of the day, these direct to consumer or direct d to c, brands are really embracing that. They know who they are. Mhmm. And they won’t change for that. Right. Because they only have a couple products at this point. And then eventually, they grow.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Yeah. It is smart too. I agree. Because it’s not, it’s not changing for the sake of changing or to the point of whiplash. Right? Because that creates distrust or disloyalty within your customers because they’re like, who the hell are you? I don’t understand what you sell or what you do. So I do think they’re maintaining that consistency, but you’re right. These bigger brands, you know, that feel and seem so set in stone.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s like, how can we embrace that mentality a little bit more? And really look at it as evolving. Right? It’s not about a big shift or change. So, you know, that was one thing. I’m coming back to a different question. I skipped ahead on, because I think it all comes together nicely with this. Since you’ve worked across, like, seven major retailers, that’s quite a few developing media strategies. How do you approach the challenge of creating cohesive brand experiences? Because we’ve touched on that a couple times now while navigating the unique requirements of every retail platform. That’s hard.
Deanna Behrens:
It is very difficult. It’s very, very challenging because everyone’s different. Everyone has a little nuance or a little different thing. Like, if you think about, like, Meijer, for instance. Meijer is very community driven. So you wanna make sure that what you’re doing at a Meijer is really leaning into that community aspect that everyone has, whereas at Walmart, it’s all about the value. Yeah. Whereas Costco is about the experience.
Deanna Behrens:
So it’s like you have to embrace the different nuances of each retailer. So you have to make sure that overarching, you have a good brand foundation, that your overarching brand is looking the same, having that consistent feel and consistent look. So then if I see an ad for Walmart and I see an ad for a national ad or I see the Meijer ad, I’m seeing that consistent look and message, but the message itself will be different. So I will have more of a community sound mindset for that Meijer, shopper versus that value driven, and that one stop shop for, like, the Walmarts of the world. So it’s just a little trying to figure those out, but then it’s also kind of leaning into each of the different retail media networks of benefits. And it’s like, sometimes you have to lean into those third party providers outside of the three retail media networks because they don’t offer what you need to reach your consumer. You have to understand who your target audience is. And you also have to be and especially in today’s world, you have to be in a place where you’re willing to kind of adapt your audience because it’s not always the current and lapsed households.
Deanna Behrens:
It’s like, where else can I unlock other new things? Because people are changing. People are evolving. And at the end of the day, you don’t always wanna be getting those gen x or baby boomers because eventually, they’re gonna age out of the system. You’ve gotta keep innovating and keep getting the new generation in there Mhmm. And thinking beyond that. Yeah. And so it’s very interesting. It’s, like, making sure you have that baseline, but it’s also being willing to change up the creative, change up the Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
The tactic that you’re going at it with those retailers and maybe even adjusting the audience slightly because it’s a different person who’s shopping at a Meijer versus shopping at a Walmart. Mhmm. And in today’s environment, everyone’s shopping at multiple different places. So how can I get them if they’re if they’re going to Walmart for their everyday groceries, but then they’re going to Costco to get those big bulk items, how do I make sure I’m getting to them on that? Or if they’re going to Costco for their date night for all Right. In all intents and purposes, how do I reach them there?
Amy Vaughan:
Date night. I love some, God I love me some Costco.
Deanna Behrens:
I know. It’s very fascinating. It’s very much an experience, very much gotta get to Costco. If you’re a Costco person, you are a Costco person.
Amy Vaughan:
It is an event. It is an event. Well and that leads so nicely into our next question. Right? Because everything you just mentioned, like, it just goes to show how fragmented this whole commerce landscape has become. What are some strategies that you have found effective working with your clients and with your team for maintaining that competitive edge as well? Because, yeah, it’s just a lot to manage.
Deanna Behrens:
It’s a lot. It really is. And I think it’s extremely challenging because the industry is changing Mhmm. Especially from a measurement standpoint. And I think that’s where we kind of double down on if you’ve gotta really understand the data. Like, let the data tell a story. Have that generic maybe it’s ROAS, maybe it’s, impressions. Whatever it happens to be.
Deanna Behrens:
I wouldn’t say it should be impressions. Sure. ROAS is definitely the better option. Yeah. But you look at that ROAS across the different retailers, see where it’s netting out. At the end of the day, everybody’s doing even though they’re supposed to be a generic media math, everyone has their own version of media math. So understanding how they’re getting to the media math, understanding how you need to adapt it to the different, retailers you’re working with, the different partners you’re working with so that you can really see a clear picture of what that data looks like across everyone and really leveraging your own first party data to really kind of un unlock that. And I think that’s how you remain competitive. Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
Is really showcasing, like, okay. I did a CTV ad for this, and this was my ROAS and looking at that. But it’s not just looking at the ROAS. It’s looking at the video completion rates. It’s looking at the click through rates and really kinda looking at that tactic by itself. Like, was this effective? Yes. I feel like it was effective. Okay. Now I’m pulling it into the bigger campaign of everything I did. How was it effective there? And kind of asking those questions. So it’s not just, like, taking the data and say, okay. I’m just gonna stay with CTV forever. It’s more of, hey. I’m gonna shift this because I’m seeing in this area that, shop over recipes is doing much better or whatever it happens to be, whatever that that component is. But it’s really kinda like thinking it in two faint veins. It’s like, okay.
Deanna Behrens:
For this campaign, how did it perform? For overarching, for everything I’ve done this year, how did it perform? And really kinda pushing that boundary and finding that measurement element, that really kind of leans into it. And sorry. Piper loves talking about retailing media, so she is here to help
Amy Vaughan:
Okay, we’ve got questions for her too. We’ll leave this to the end for her to answer. No. I love it. Yeah. That’s so great. I think priority dollars and looking at how and where you’re spending personalization, customization, like, all those things are definitely competitive edges.
Deanna Behrens:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. This is why we have our live listening audience here with us too. Amy would like some clarity on what JDP is. We talk all these, like, terms, and I’m like, oh, yeah. We should define.
Deanna Behrens:
Sorry about that.
Amy Vaughan:
Let’s help Amy out.
Deanna Behrens:
It’s a joint business plan. So, typically, your top 10 customers, sometimes it’s more than that, will actually meet with the retailer itself and have a meeting directly with that retailer to talk about what is their plan for the year. And they kind of come together to kind of build out a plan on how to reach the customers. Because at the end of the day, the ultimate goal between that manufacturer and that retailer is to sell product at that store. So they have those joint business plans and joint business discussions. Some of them are called top to tops. So depending on the retailer, it could be a smaller one and it goes to top to top. But JVP is kinda the general term.
Deanna Behrens:
And then when it comes to retail media networks, they’re having a JVP directly with the manufacturer to say, hey. I’m gonna spend x, y, z amount of money with you, and I’m gonna get you this CPM efficiency, or I’m gonna give you this added value or this report, things like that. So they also have their own JVP. So JVPs can be a JVP with a retailer. It could be a JVP with an RMM, retail media network.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. That’s fantastic. Again, what’s the win-win for everybody? How can we optimize and leverage the data, customer information and data, which I know certain retailers are really protective of. Right? Yes. Yes. Because, I mean, obviously, it’s a huge advantage for them. Yes. But, yeah, having those partnerships is kind of a good way to start to break down some of those limitations and barriers.
Deanna Behrens:
Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
So back to where you were before, you were talking a lot about, like, key performance indicators, KPIs, metrics, ROAS, which is return on advertising, in case you’ve not heard the term before listeners. How do you approach how your approach to measuring success evolved as retail media has matured? What metrics should marketers be prioritizing? Because I think there are such a thing as, like, those feel good vanity metrics that sometimes it’s just nice to see, but did it actually yield anything?
Deanna Behrens:
Well and I think it’s it’s come I went to a conference earlier this year, and it comes down to, like, the there’s, like, four levels of, measurement. Not everyone’s at all four levels. So at first, you have the traditional media, which is your typical, like, clicks, impressions, you know, very things that aren’t really telling you a lot, but it’s telling you how many people you’ve reached, how many people you’ve, captured.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Deanna Behrens:
And then you’ve got the level two, which is getting a little bit more into, like, what’s my return on ad spend, but it’s not giving me, like, the control group versus the post control. Like and I think that’s where a lot of people are kinda struggling a little bit. It’s like, okay. Did my media actually activate, or was it just because we happened to run a merch event during that time? Like, we kind of buy three, get five, or whatever it is. Mhmm. You know, and so what else was in factor? And I think we’re getting into a place where, like, level three is where you’re really being able to get kind of that clean room analysis where you’re really focusing in on that specific area Yeah. And tactics. So a clean room is where you’re taking out all the other extra areas and just focusing on that one tactic to see how it performs.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Deanna Behrens:
And so that’s where a lot of people are trying to get to. But the other thing is is at the end of the day, we’re all aiming to get to level four, which is where I was kind of alluding to earlier where I can take what I did at Kroger, and I can take what I did at Walmart, put them together side by side knowing that the metrics that I’m using are identical, and I can compare them across the board. Right now, if I take what, KPM sends me versus Walmart Connect, totally two different things and various different things that they have in play. So it’s really understanding how they’re getting to that metric and kinda asking that question and not being afraid to ask the question. Where are you getting the metric? How are you doing the math? What does that look like? I have a meeting next week with one of our retail media networks asking that very question. Because every time they come back, it’s always, like, three times higher than everyone else’s. So it’s like, okay. Well, where are you getting it, and how are you doing it? There’s a lot of duplication.
Deanna Behrens:
So understanding the duplication that they might be picking up Yep. Across other places because that’s also a factor. Yep. Because at the end of the day, you’re not just gonna run an off-site ad. You’re probably gonna run an on-site ad. You’re gonna have to do some search. You’re gonna have a whole bunch of other stuff. It’s very omnichannel focused.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
And so you have to consider, like, okay. Am I just looking at this versus that? And I think at the end of the day, the easiest one is ROAS, but I think it’s also incremental sales. Yeah. Because how much was incremental? Like, how much did I actually get on top of this that I wouldn’t have got had I not run this campaign? And I think that one’s the key one and any kind of metrics that you’re looking at.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Yeah. How did you move the needle? But I love a couple of things you pointed out there. It’s like even when you see, like, really high or, like, three times, like, what it normally is or a three times benchmark, Sure. It’s a reason to celebrate, but like you said, it’s also a reason to question because it’s like I mean, toilet paper during COVID. Come on.
Deanna Behrens:
Oh, yeah. Of course.
Amy Vaughan:
Talk about metrics. You might as well just throw it out the window. Like, hopefully, we will never have a run on toilet paper like we did during COVID.
Deanna Behrens:
I know. Well, right now it’s eggs. So yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s true. That’s true. So you have to think about those external and economic and other situational factors, like you said, that could have caused that spike instead of just attributing it to maybe the wrong thing.
Deanna Behrens:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
So, yeah, don’t celebrate too soon. Not to be pessimistic but, yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
It could be weather, it could be so simple as the weather. I mean Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Deanna Behrens:
You know, when we were fighting the fires in California Mhmm. It was probably just liters of water, like, you know, that went spiked. And you have to think about those factors too, to see if it was an isolated incident or if it’s actually something that will have a long term impact.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Well, on the happier side of, like, the positive aspect of, you know, data driving kind of something that was obviously, like, good and worked well or that you were able to take and leverage to pivot, I was wondering if you could share an example where data insights had led to maybe an unexpected opportunity, a strategy pivot that then helped to deliver some results?
Deanna Behrens:
100%. I think it’s one of the ones that really sticks with me, and I’m gonna have to be kind of vague. Yeah. On some of the details, but it’s really looking at audience insights and seeing what we can do to unwrap audiences. Because audience, there’s so much more with the data that’s being provided. Like, you know, various different networks are providing additional data first first party data that’s available, and they’re making it more readily available for their marketing efforts. So a lot of RMNs will still default to the current lapsed households. That’s great. That’s great.
Deanna Behrens:
It’s exciting, not exciting. It’s really thinking beyond that. So if you’re looking at a specific occasion, trying to think about, like, okay. I’m going to be advertising within, Valentine’s Day or something. And you’re thinking like, okay. Beyond just the boyfriend and girlfriend, husband and wife, you know, mom and kids, dad and kids getting their things. What else is out there? Well, Galentine’s Day is really kind of, like, taken a big, big emphasis, and it’s a new thing. It’s like, is there a way, an opportunity to to really see who the Galentine’s are and really kind of double down on that.
Deanna Behrens:
And that’s something that is like, okay. It’s a new trend. How can we capitalize on this trend? How can we bring it into our media and really kind of unlock that? And so that’s some stuff that we’ve done on our side of just really unlocking and seeing new households and new opportunities. And so data has definitely told us that story. It’s like you have another person out there. Like, how can we unlock that? Is it, hey. There’s a trend with a certain, I’m trying to think of a good example. Like, I don’t know why White Lotus comes to mind, but something maybe White Lotus they use in their in their
Amy Vaughan:
Oh, yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
Show that people are like, oh my gosh. This is so amazing. I need to have this. Yep. It’s like, how can I unlock that from a data perspective? Because there’s something else going on. Like, people are really spiking with light White Lotus. Why is there something I can tie into White Lotus to bring into my advertising? So I think it’s things like that and just really kinda thinking about your audience beyond just this stereotypical current and last
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
And think a little bit more in-depth on what you’re actually doing. So that’s what we’ve done is we’ve actually been able to identify audiences that you’re like, I never really thought about that audience. But, yeah, that could be an unknown top market. And by doing that, it actually became one of our top performing markets. And we were like, yeah. We’re using that again. We’re using it across all the retailers. Beyond just the one that we used it with.
Deanna Behrens:
So, again, looking at the data, kind of understanding, like, who is this person, what some of the interests, what some of those cross opportunities, what some of that, things that are popping in the everyday Yeah. That we can really kind of leverage within our stuff. So it’s kind of a combination of data and then understanding what’s happening in the market. And I think kind of tying this into probably a future question is, like, AI is helping with that too. So it can, like, take the data, show, like, hey. What’s happening? Like, why is this popping during White Lotus? Yep. And it could say, well, this is what’s happening. So you may not be familiar, but you can actually tie it into what you’re looking for and then pull it back with other data to tell that story.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. No. I love it. That’s great. Yeah. I agree. And we’ve had the conversation a number of times here on the podcast and at Together Digital events. It’s just like AI. It was literally built for pattern recognition. And we have a big data problem within our industry, right, where we have more information than we even know what to do with because our human brains can’t process it. So yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
Exactly.
Amy Vaughan:
Use AI for something. Please don’t use it to write crappy copy. Like
Deanna Behrens:
No. No.
Amy Vaughan:
Instead, give it all the analytics and the data and say, find me some insights. Find me some new markets. Tell me where I’m not reaching somebody. Right?
Deanna Behrens:
Yeah. Like, you have to breed the AI to, like, make it work to the best. Yeah. But it will take the stuff that it will take you weeks to do and do it in seconds. And then you take that and you really make it work hard for you. And I think that’s really what’s happening in a lot of the different RMNs is we’re actually having a lot of automation bidding that look like modeling. We have a lot of, you know, even dynamic creative that’s going on in the marketplace that can it’s all AI based. Yeah. Taking it to that next level and making sure that we’re reaching the target when we need to reach them, where we need to reach them, and how we need to
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. And the way they wanna be reached. Yeah. It made me think too as you were talking. It reminded me, like, I think one of my favorite brands that has really taken that consumer insight and leveraged it and did something good with it was Old Spice. They know that women are buying the product. So everything that you see, it’s like they yes. It’s advertising Old Spice, which is body wash for men, but they are talking to the women. You know, as long as,
Deanna Behrens:
And there’s an audience insight they have unlocked.
Amy Vaughan:
Totally. And it was so funny because I remember this happened, like, more than ten years ago, and everybody’s, like, so gobsmacked by it. And I’m like, but we do 80% of the buying. Like, we are 80% of the buying power in the country. Of course, we’re buying the freaking body wash. Yes. You should be talking to us. Exactly.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes. I want my man to smell like a man, and I’m choosing the scent, not him, because I gotta be the one to smell him.
Deanna Behrens:
Exactly. And I’m yeah. Exactly. It’s like, why do I want him to smell like something else?
Amy Vaughan:
Like, right? Yeah. And then it’s just yeah. So there’s just so much opportunity there as well too. Again, while another fun little rabbit hole we could go down, but we don’t have the whole day. So no,
Deanna Behrens:
We’re done, unfortunately.
Amy Vaughan:
Alright. I’m curious, you know, your journey in the industry, like you said, you kind of have been here from, like, the beginning of those retail media networks. Is there any particular, like, commonly held belief that you’ve changed your mind about since you’ve been in the industry?
Deanna Behrens:
Yeah. I think it’s becoming more and more apparent. Like, there’s always been that marketing funnel. It’s always been I’ve done so many campaigns, so many presentations with that marketing funnel saying, oh, we got the awareness. You got the consideration. You got a conversion. And I always add loyalty because I want them to come back. Right? It’s not that same. It’s not there anymore. It’s so not there. And I talked about it a little bit earlier to earlier in our chat about how I can go from not even being in the mindset to purchase in, like, two seconds. Yep. And that belief has totally gone out the door. I think you have to make your ads shoppable. You have to think of that consumer journey.
Deanna Behrens:
You have to make sure you’re really kind of honing in on all of that. Otherwise, you’re missing out. Like, it’s a total linear process. And I think what I heard, in a conference again earlier this year was, hey. My brand team thinks we’re aware they’re gonna do the awareness, and then the retail is gonna do that consideration conversion. And it’s not that. You have to be working together holistically the entire time. Because I still firmly believe, and I don’t think it’s gone anywhere, at the power of three.
Deanna Behrens:
Like, you see the thing at least three times, and then you’re gonna purchase it because it’s now top of mind for you. And so the brand does need to still advertise, still create that foundation of what that brand stands for. But then the retail media really comes in and gives you the opportunity to purchase it and and really encourages you to purchase it at whatever retailer you happen to be going to and you happen to be favoring at that moment in time. Yeah. And people are not loyal to any retailer anymore. It’s very much except for Costco.
Amy Vaughan:
I was gonna say, you can’t miss the Costco folks.
Deanna Behrens:
The Costco love. But at the end of the day, they’re willing to go to other places. So it’s like, how do I continue to build that and push that? And I think the reach of the marketing funnel is still important. You still need to know if I’m doing a CTV ad, it should be an awareness build. But I know that that awareness is still adding that context that I should be buying it at Dollar General versus, you know, the Walgreens or whatever. You know, and it’s just kind of reinforcing it. And if I see it three times and I happen to be at that Dollar General, I’m gonna purchase that product. And I think that’s just the important part is just kind of continuing to see holistically how all of the plans work together, and it’s not yours is here and mine is here. We have to work together in, like, that circle. And I think we’re calling it now, the it’s it’s more of that spiral and that flywheel is what we’re calling it.
Amy Vaughan:
Flywheel.
Deanna Behrens:
And that’s you have to embrace the flywheel versus marketing funnel, which it’s hard for me to even say flywheel for it, but that’s really where the industry is going, and it’s no longer the funnel. It’s the flywheel.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. The funnel has definitely collapsed. Like, you’re a % right with impulse buying, with immediate gratification, being able to sell through video, through social, all of these different things. I mean, none of us sitting here today can’t say we haven’t done a little clickety-clicking late at night, and we’re like, wait. What did I buy? It just shows up at home. And you’re like, I think I remember buying this.
Deanna Behrens:
I know. I’m like, I have that Amazon box, and I don’t know what to say.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s like Christmas all over again. I mean, I don’t know. I got myself something. I was half asleep, but I know it’s gonna be great when I open it up.
Deanna Behrens:
Yeah. I don’t know why. It’s fine.
Amy Vaughan:
Oh, awesome. So, yeah, I mean, I did have a question in here about AI, which I feel like you kind of already addressed. I’m gonna bypass that one and go for the brands that are just beginning. Because we talk a lot about big brands.
Deanna Behrens:
Oh, yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
But for those because I have a lot of friends who own small businesses that are working to build retail media as, like, a growth strategy. Mhmm. And it’s obviously, it’s hard. Right? You’re contending with a lot of different people, a lot of different things trying to get into these stores. It’s like moving a mountain. Yeah. What are some places in which they could start looking for opportunities?
Deanna Behrens:
Yeah. I think the thing that you have to think about is when you’re a smaller brand, you have to think about what retailers do. I really wanna push on, and really double down on. Because if you get into some of the bigger ones, the bigger players have very high minimums. And if you’re a smaller player, you don’t have your minimum. Their minimum is your budget for the year. Yeah. Right. It doesn’t make sense. So you have to be a little bit more scrappy. You have to think beyond just the RMS. Some RMS do have lower budgets, especially, like, the smaller retailers.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
So you have to think, okay. Where are the consumers that I wanna move the needle? How do I get to them? And then in some cases, you might be starting off small and just doing searches across different ones. Search is probably the best one to be in because it’s the closest way to conversion. But you have to be driving that awareness and that consideration too. Yeah. Search is more of that consideration conversion metric. So you have to think beyond since, like, maybe it’s partnering with third party providers, building that awareness, building that momentum. Because I’ve talked to several retailers or CPGs that are so small, and they’re like, yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
We’re gonna go into Kroger, and we’re gonna advertise within Kroger. And I’m like, okay. But Kroger doesn’t know how, KPM doesn’t understand how to do division level media. They aren’t made that way. They’re made at the national level. So if you’re not able to do that division level and you don’t have presence across all of their divisions, you’re out of luck, and you’re just wasting money and not getting very far. So you need to figure out, how do I make my dollar stretch further, and what are some of those more economical ways of getting to where I need to be. So, like Right.
Deanna Behrens:
If staying within the Kroger world because we’re in Cincinnati Yeah. If we’ve got, like, the more economical is your search. Your targeted on-site ads are economical, but those may not work for you. Mhmm. I’ve had several clients that they just don’t work because most of my sales are in store versus online. So it’s just really kind of embracing, like, what can work. And I think having that test and learn mentality
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
Try something. Don’t be afraid to try something. And then once you find that tried and true, then, like, continue to think through your budgets. But always have that test and learn because that test and learning is gonna, like, help you tremendously well. There’s several times in my career where I was like, I don’t wanna test that. And I’m so glad I tested it because it became so much mental to future campaigns. Had I not, I would have been behind the eight ball for everything else. So, being scrappy, understanding your consumer, understanding how you’re approaching it, and where to find them is gonna be really key to it.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. And I will just be a cautionary tale. I mean, when you are a small even a midsize company, like, retail could be the thing that if you go bust, if you’re not careful. Yep. I have another podcast I wanna plug for a second because it’s so amazing. You should check it out too. Let’s call it Together Marketing Rescue. And we had this exact conversation last week with a young woman here in Cincinnati who owns the Davis Cookie Company.
Amy Vaughan:
So y’all go check out Davis Cookie Company, her website. They have a food truck that comes to your office, so you guys should get some cookies for an office day. Yep. They do like cookie classes. She does so much. She’s got online sales, cookie subscription box. And, you know, we got to talking about retail, and she got into the Oakley Krogers. And my two co, like, hosts for the show were just gushing.
Amy Vaughan:
Because the whole point of this podcast is to bring small businesses that are struggling with a particular pain point, and we help figure out how to diagnose that situation and then help support them with marketing. And then our members who provide marketing services pitch them. So we’re putting small businesses that are struggling with marketing and marketers who provide marketing services from, like, either independent contractor or boutique agencies in the situation to then, like, meet their next client is so cool. And so our members are getting new business and these small businesses are getting support. But it was really funny because, you know, Christina Davis, the woman who owns it, was like, well, you gotta learn what products are gonna be working on the shelf because something I learned that I didn’t know is that you pay for the products that don’t sell.
Deanna Behrens:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s true. Outside of, like, all the additional fees and costs to, like, market and store to advertise for the shelf space and also if it doesn’t sell. And so that’s where I think your approach of testing and learning is so wise. And I think Christine is such a smart businesswoman. So, Christine, if you’re listening, seriously, like, so smart
Deanna Behrens:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
To say, like, yeah, retail is our goal. But, ultimately, I can’t put anything and everything behind it because I could lose my shirt. Like, I really need to do it as a phased, you know, more agile learning approach. But yeah. So you can check it out for Oakley Kroger’s if you’re close to listeners.
Deanna Behrens:
Oh, I totally have.
Amy Vaughan:
Cookie company. They have, like, cookie dough. It’s like a cookie monster one. It’s like blue. It’s really fun.
Deanna Behrens:
I know somebody who goes all the time to Oakley Kroger. So I’m like, buy me one, and she goes next time.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. I love supporting our small businesses. Alright. I’ve got one more question before we go into our power around, and then it looks like we’ve got actually one quick question from our audience. Actually, I’m gonna go ahead and ask Nancy’s question. She wants to know regarding audience data. Are you referencing the RMN data or the brand’s data? And which data is the most valuable? And how do you look at the data as a whole?
Deanna Behrens:
Great question. It’s important to look at both, to be honest with you. And sometimes it’s harder to get the first party data, you know, aligned to the both. But at the end of the day, being able to kinda digest it both, is going to get you a lot further. And at the same time, you have to understand the RMN’s data because that’s what they’re talking about with the retailer. And the retailer is pulling that. They’re not pulling the first party data that you have necessarily. And so you have to understand how yours relates to theirs, and yours might be telling a slightly different story and be able to tell why it’s telling a different story, so that you can talk intelligently to your retailer.
Deanna Behrens:
But at the end of the day, if you can do both, it’s better to do both and to really kinda streamline it. Because if you’re doing your own data, you can take it across the different partners that you have, versus just doing your data versus just their data. Because I’ve definitely seen some or some partners and manufacturers getting into trouble just talking about their data all day long. The retailer’s like, it’s not matching mine, and there’s, like, this, you know, destruction of conversation. Right. Because you’re not able to kinda, like, swing both ways. So it’s really good to be able to show in both terms, and to be able to understand and dissect it. At the end of the day, the goal is to ultimately use your first party data and tie it back to that retailer media data. But if you’re not as well advanced with the first party on your side, RMN’s fine. Just understand the nuances, understand how it’s devised and created in order to, like, really talk about it.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. And know that it’s not your own. Right? It’s like your own data. That’s the word.
Deanna Behrens:
Exactly.
Amy Vaughan:
Awesome. Thanks. Well, keep the questions coming if you’ve got them, folks. We’re still here. Got a few minutes left. Alright. Before we move into the power round, I wanted to know as we look forward, how do you see the relationship between retail, media, ecommerce, and traditional marketing evolving in the next few years?
Deanna Behrens:
It is 100% gonna evolve. It’s going to constantly change. Yeah. I feel like I can’t even predict some of the things that’ll probably be on the horizon.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
I mean, we have so many different things that are talking about it. Like, you know, people have talked about the metaverse.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm.
Deanna Behrens:
Is it gonna happen? Or is it not gonna happen?
Amy Vaughan:
Is it but maybe not as exciting. I’m sorry. But not the metaverse. You know? Metaverse fans.
Deanna Behrens:
It’s like, I don’t know how big the metaverse is gonna be or if it’s not. Like, we keep talking about it. We keep dancing around it. Now, like, you and I talked about earlier, like, QR codes. We’re like, oh, it’s gonna be big, and then it wasn’t. Now it is. It’s just mainstream. So I feel like things are constantly evolving. I will say that what’s gonna happen is traditional media is gonna have to start thinking beyond their traditional metrics. Right? You’re gonna have to think beyond, like, that impressions and that store counts. And you’re gonna have to get a little bit more creative. And whether that’s with AR technology or it’s definitely with personalization, it’s making that data work harder and smarter for you. Yeah. Using that AI technology that we have out there, you know, it’s definitely gonna have that greater emphasis on measurement and attribution. I mean, thinking beyond, like, everything siloed.
Deanna Behrens:
It’s very much an integrated approach. And if we aren’t integrating, we aren’t looking at it in an integrated way. Right. We aren’t thinking, forward thinking, we’re we’re really gonna be behind the ball game. Because I know that there’s some brands out there that are just now starting to talk about digital media, and I’m like, well, we’re a little behind the ball.
Amy Vaughan:
Right.
Deanna Behrens:
We’ll get there. But it’s not, it’s not a lost cause. I mean, you’d have to start somewhere, but it’s like you’re having to think holistically if you want if you wanna be something, you have to always embrace that change, always embrace that ambiguity. Like, had someone not told me early in my career, like, you need to understand digital Yeah. I would not be where I’m at today had I not embraced it. Or had I walked away from my boss when he said, yeah. You’re doing shopper marketing. I’m like, no.
Deanna Behrens:
I don’t wanna do that. Right. You know, I’m here for brand management. I don’t know what you’re talking about. So had I not done that and had you not had that embrace, you’re not gonna see that future because the future is stuff that we haven’t even dreamed up yet at the end of the day. And you have to make sure you’re embracing that and taking it to that next level.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. I agree with you. The more, like, holistic we can look at all of it and the less siloed we are, it makes so much sense. I mean, it’s funny. I was just kind of commenting today in a morning meeting with somebody about even our name, Together Digital. We were started in 2016 when we had digital only agencies and Above the Line and PR and, you know, influencers. It’s like all these different things. And now you don’t see just everybody’s digital. Right? We need to be thinking forward and ahead and holistically as brands because, again, our customers, they don’t see those, like, they don’t see those things as segmented or siloed.
Deanna Behrens:
Yeah. It’s all integrated, and it’s all gonna work together. Like, there’s I don’t think traditional media is gonna be what it traditionally has been. Oh, yeah. It’s gonna be more integrated. Mhmm. You can start to see some of it. Like, even if you listen to the radio
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
Like, I’ve noticed drastic changes, which is how radio is showcasing it, how TV is showcasing themselves. And it’s just you have to think beyond. Otherwise, they’re gonna end up becoming and this is a really bad analogy, but, you’re gonna become the Sears of the world where Sears doesn’t exist. It was one of the leading manufacturers and retailers. Now it’s not because it didn’t embrace the change.
Amy Vaughan:
It did not. Great example. Don’t be Sears. Oh, I do miss Sears, Ron. Put on your Sunday best kids. Alright. Ashley wants to know, could you suggest one or two resources for someone just getting into retailer media that is consistently a solid place to go for new cutting edge info? Outside of you, of course.
Deanna Behrens:
Outside of me. You could always reach out to me, of course. But, the places that I would start, I got started with the path to purchase. The path to purchase was where I went to the first conference. That’s where my boss sent me to learn about shopper marketing. It’s still traditionally, it’s really a strong place to go and to get that information. Yeah. If you’re looking at specific retailers, Kantar, RetailIQ is always a great source of information as well as if you’re trying to dive into retail, and understand them in a more detailed level, if you will.
Deanna Behrens:
Mhmm. LinkedIn, ironically, is one of my favorite sources because people are always willing to help within LinkedIn. And there’s so many groups and chats that you can just ask a random question, and there’s no judgment, which I love. And that’s how I’ve taught a lot of myself on different things, is through that. I do list or get daily updates from, like, the retail dive. I think that’s what it is. And there’s a different marketing dive. There’s a whole bunch of different, retail, updates that you can get.
Deanna Behrens:
And those are just really helpful just to get those snapshots of what’s happening in the industry. And if something sparks your curiosity, you dive deeper, and you can learn what’s happening. Because understanding your retailer that you’re working with and what they’re facing, in their everyday life is actually gonna help inform your strategy Yeah. And how you’re approaching them and working with them and their customers. Because you gotta know, hey. Target is facing some backlash recently. So how do I combat that? How do I make things unique and different, in that space?
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. I love it. That’s such great advice. Those are some good places. I’m sure our listeners are taking lots of notes. I would say one other thing too is just, like, you know, you said people reach out. I love that. So we’ll drop your LinkedIn, link into the show notes and everything.
Amy Vaughan:
But also just that whole aspect of, like, peers as mentors, like finding other women that are in the retail media space. You know, we have a lot of that going right now. It’s together digital. In fact, our peer group applications are open. Members, if you’re listening, sign up and get your peer group. Having your own little personal board of directors, women that are kind of like in the same space that know the pains of all that, but then also can talk about life and everything else in between is so beneficial. So I think surrounding yourself, you know, finding other communities or other ways to plug into communities that are in alignment with or have people that do retail marketing is just a smart way to go.
Deanna Behrens:
It is.
Amy Vaughan:
You’re gonna feel like you’re with your peeps. They’re gonna know the pain points, but they’re also maybe a half set up ahead of you, which is maybe all you need to kind of keep ahead. Because sometimes it feels like, oh, we have to keep up. We have to keep up. But then we also have to keep our jobs and manage our families and others we wanna live with. You know? Yep. And so I think community is another great way to do that. So Oh, yeah.
Deanna Behrens:
I had a friend call me the other day. She’s like, okay. I’m new to this, and tell me what she needs and what I need to know. And she’s like, in the thirty minute conversation we had, she’s like, you’ve taught me more than I’ve I’ve been able to learn at work. And thank you because your boss is so busy. They’re just constantly moving. And it was just like, hey. What do you wanna know? And I can help. You know?
Amy Vaughan:
So good.
Deanna Behrens:
And just I think anyone in the industry typically has that persona. And if they don’t, that’s sad because it’s a very small industry you’re working. Everyone tends to cross paths at one place or another.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. No. I love it. Alright. Well, we are on time. The hour just flew by. Thank you so much, Deanna, for your insights and your wisdom and for sharing it so freely. Again, they’re really inspiring and encouraging. A lot of our listeners that are new to the space or interested in the space, And thank you listeners for all your fantastic questions. We love it when we hear from you as well. Yes. All right.
Deanna Behrens:
Thank you for having me.
Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely. My pleasure. All right, everyone. So, this episode will probably be up and live, later next week. So keep an eye on that. Check us out on YouTube. We are on Spotify. We are on iTunes. Wherever you stream your podcast, you’ll probably find us. For the next two weeks, I’m actually traveling for some speaking. So I will miss you all tier, but I will be back in May for some more amazing conversations. Everyone, till then, keep asking, keep giving, and keep growing. We’ll see you soon.
Outro:
Produced by Heartcast Media.
