Amy Vaughan:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to our weekly Power Lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughan, and I am the owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. You can join the movement at togetherindigital.com. And today, I am so thrilled to welcome Deesha Dyer. She is a social impact strategist, author, transformational leader whose extraordinary journey exemplifies how the power of nontraditional paths to leadership can be so satisfying and so transformative. From a community college student to White House Social Secretary under the Obama administration, Deesha has navigated spaces where she never expected to belong and thrived. Now as the founder and CEO of Hook and Fasten, she helps organizations navigate the evolving landscape of leadership, social impact, and equity.
Amy Vaughan:
Her recent book, Undiplomatic, which our Together Digital members read and loved and actually had Deesha with us for a discussion, shares her personal story of turning imposter syndrome into confidence and creating systems that allow diverse leadership to flourish. I highly recommend it. 10 out of 10 read. Mhmm. Deesha’s unique perspective from working at the highest levels of government to her current work centering untapped talent offers invaluable wisdom, authentic leadership, and meaningful change. Deesha, we are so happy to have you here with us at the PowerLab to meet more of our amazing community. Thanks for joining us today.
Deesha Dyer:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s good to be in conversation again after the book event. So happy to be here. Thank you, yeah. Everyone for joining.
Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely. We wanted more, Deesha. We’re like, bring her back. Let’s have more conversation. Because, you know, your journey and your experience—I have a lot of women on this podcast, and we always start asking, like, what has your journey been like? And, you know, I’m not a huge fan of success without strife, and I really love when women share their authentic experiences and stories because it really helps others see themselves in the opportunities that maybe haven’t come to them yet, but to know that they’re there. So you started off as a community college student and eventually rose to the White House Social Secretary. It’s absolutely remarkable. I loved hearing and reading your story and then getting to meet you. But I’m curious, what was one of the most unexpected lessons you learned about leadership during all of that transition?
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. I think, you know, honestly, I’m continuing to learn about leadership, number one. So even though I’ve reached this, you know, this high pinnacle of working at the White House, my student journey of learning is always going, you know, right, as I grow and as I discover different parts of the world or myself, right, which I think is such a beauty. But I think, you know, when I worked at the White House, the leadership journey that I had was unexpected. And I realized that I had everything in me to be a good leader already versus I have to learn how to do this and learn how to do that. Obviously, there are some things like managing people or, you know, changing the environment that we do have to do. But the core qualities of service, of seeing people, of instilling confidence, of delegation—like all those things are things that were inside of me. They just were activated even more once I got to the White House.
Deesha Dyer:
And so I think that was a surprise for me because I thought I had to take all these classes or all these certifications or read all these books Mhmm. To kinda be a good leader, which I think those things enhance you as a leader. Sure. But to me, I had the qualities already in me. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
And that tracks. Right? I think they say, like, what is it? Women or men will apply for jobs that they’re 60% qualified. Women will wait till they’re 10 Yes. Percent qualified. We’re, like, holding ourselves back. And I think one other thing I loved about hearing your story and journey is that there were, and I’m fortunate. I’m a beneficiary as well of people seeing the potential in me and lifting me up and encouraging me. And I felt like that was very similar for you as well where they were like, Deesha. Like, yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
You are the person to do this. And you’re like, oh, yeah. You’re right. I am. You know? Yeah. And I think that’s something amazing that we can do for others, and I would love to see more men and women do for women in general as well is just really seeing that potential in others and lifting them up, you know, and calling them out for those things because, yeah, when you’ve got it, you’ve got it. And, you know, we need to lift each other up for those kinds of situations. So
Deesha Dyer:
100%.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit more about your book Undiplomatic and how, especially, you’re focused on transforming imposter syndrome into authentic confidence, which, you know, those two words, both authentic and imposter syndrome get used a lot.
Deesha Dyer:
Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
So context and stories for me and our listeners are always great. I’d love it if you could share a moment when you realized that you belonged in the rooms that others might have questioned your presence.
Deesha Dyer:
I would say just, you know, honestly, for the sake of also really entertaining people that are listening and here, I would say the Oval Office. You know, I think that when we think of the Oval Office, obviously, it’s in the West Wing. It’s where the president works and, you know, where he, she, has these important meetings. And for me, being in that space, I was like, am I here, like, to just, like, get the water? Like, I was like, what service capacity could I do? Which is, again, no problem doing that, but I was like, kind of like, I’m in service of everybody in here versus being on the team of everybody in here kind of working together. And for me, that was a big jolt because I, for a long time, was like, you know, I don’t really belong here. Wait till they find out that I, you know, went to community college. I don’t have any four-year degree, but nobody asked those questions.
Deesha Dyer:
So I think that oftentimes we get these spaces and, like, we’re gonna be found out. But who’s nobody’s asking. Nobody said, like, what’s your education level before you start talking and before you’re invited to this meeting. They saw the qualities of who I was. And so I would say that was probably the biggest jolt for me. You know, it was like, like, hey. Like, I belong here just like you do. I don’t even know where you came from next to me.
Deesha Dyer:
You know what I mean? So for me to assume that everybody in here is talking about me is like a little bit of paranoia. So that for me, really helped, you know, me see that I did belong. And that’s not to discount the times where, you know, there are forces and people that do work against us that want to see us feel inferior, you know. But thankfully for me, like, that was not one of those times.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s good. That’s good. Yeah. I love that you were so seen and supported in that space because it can be such a challenging environment. Again, when it’s something like Social Secretary is a highly competitive and sought-after role. Is it not? I mean, extremely.
Deesha Dyer:
It’s extremely sought after. And for the listeners just also who don’t know what that is, the Social Secretary is in charge of all of the events in 1,600 Pennsylvania. So like actually the White House. So everything from private events to public events to large events. And it’s very, it’s a very social position that people see.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. High visibility, high stress, high pressure. Mhmm. That’s a lot. And for you to have stepped into that and just really owned it, and, again, like, truly had done it so well, is impressive. And it’s one of those things I think it’s like everybody’s just, you know, a little bit of faking it till they make it. I always say courage comes after the action, not before. And that being brave is just being afraid and doing it anyway.
Deesha Dyer:
Yes. You know? Very much so.
Amy Vaughan:
Because when you get into a room like that, it’s like you have to make the most of it. And I think that internal narrative of imposter syndrome, you know, you…I think what you did there in that moment was acknowledge that it was like, okay. That’s, like, that’s the voice, that’s the doubt, but that doesn’t make it the reality.
Deesha Dyer:
Right. Of course. I think that there’s that. I definitely agree with that. But I think there’s also the fact of confusing it with being nervous. Like, you know, of course, who’s not gonna be nervous walking into the Oval Office? You know what I’m saying? Like, that is not something that I, that I’ve grown up doing. You know what I mean? So I don’t know how to do that. So I think that there is the confusion sometimes of like the confidence factor with the nerves factor.
Deesha Dyer:
And if you’re nervous about something, it’s a natural emotion. It’s natural to be scared and nervous, but I think we have to pay attention to it when it starts to seep into our consciousness if we’re not qualified, we’re not talented, we’re not worthy nor valued. But it was definitely like a lot of, you know, just me sitting there like not wanting to make any noise. Right.
Amy Vaughan:
Like, I’m gonna breathe. I’m gonna breathe.
Deesha Dyer:
I’m not gonna breathe. I’m just gonna sit here and wait to be called on. You know? Right. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
I can totally empathize. One thing I have done with others if I’m coaching and they’re nervous about speaking or being in a certain public, you know, environment is I tell them to tell yourself you’re excited, not scared. Because your body physiologically responds the same way when you’re excited versus nervous. It’s just really just a mindset shift. And then I’ve noticed that I’m like, okay. I’m just excited to be here. Yeah.
Deesha Dyer:
Not nervous. That’s good.
Amy Vaughan:
I’m just really excited about this talk I’m about ready to do.
Deesha Dyer:
Yes. I know. I think I’m going to implement that. So thank you for that.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Absolutely. It has really helped me, you know, step into some situations. No. No. Not the White House, but, you know, in some situations that has really helped me kind of stay grounded and focused as well because I think this is what I like about you, Deesha, is, like, your authentic voice and personality. It feels like, at least having read your book and met you, you’re just so true to yourself from beginning to end. It doesn’t feel like this huge role and opportunity changed you in any way.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Can you give me some, like, I don’t know. This is a bonus question from what I sent you, but, like, your thoughts on how to maintain your authenticity, like or maybe I have it later in the questions, and I forgot. I’m digging ahead. Here it is. Oh, shit. Look at that. I just have it right there. Many of our members are navigating careers where they would be the first or the only. It was exactly the next question in their position. What strategies have helped you maintain authentic self while working in highly traditional White Houses or White Houses? Well, highly traditional environments like the White House.
Deesha Dyer:
Yes. Definitely. Definitely. And this just means that you’re on point, like your, like your body, your mind is on point with the questions.
Amy Vaughan:
I’m already on track with the questions.
Deesha Dyer:
I would say, the way that I get prepared is, by looking, number one, looking at my body of work, what I’ve already done and saying to myself, like you got through all of these things or situations or jobs or tasks or whatever it is—being yourself and you survived. Like you succeeded. Not that it’s hard, that it was easy, but you succeeded. And so that is proof that you can get through whatever this is, right? I think that the other thing is for me, staying close to the community was extremely important. So when you walk inside the White House, you walk inside the gate, you’re like on the complex, you know, so you’re like behind the gate, it’s closed, like it’s this beautiful space, you know, so you kind of sometimes can get shut out from the rest of the world. That’s where you work all the time. And so I would always make sure that I, like, either volunteered or even in my role as Social Secretary, brought in community groups for, you know, trick or treating or whatever it was. Yep. To be able to, like, I won’t say see normal people, but be connected with my community because it’s so easy to keep that distance, especially when you’re getting invited to all these fancy things.
Deesha Dyer:
So I think there’s that. And I think the other thing was—and I probably said this during the book talk too, so you’re probably hearing some repetition—but one of the most important things was I had to get used to the fact that not everyone was going to understand me or everyone was going to like me. And I think that once I digested that as nothing personal, but that’s just the way we are. Like, we look at different people and we’re like, that personality is not for me or that person’s a little this. And it’s okay. So I had to basically focus on my talent, my worth, my value, and this and the task at hand or the job versus me saying, let me try to change who I am to not make people think about me, then therefore my effort towards a job or whatever it was would decrease because I would be so worried about how I would look. So I think that I had to like—and that’s probably the hardest one was to accept that, like, people were going to talk about me and people were going to say things and I had to be kind of okay with that as long as I did my job well. I respected people.
Deesha Dyer:
I had to be okay with, like, kind of not being like sometimes, and it sucks. Right. But I think that’s the key to me remaining who I am.
Amy Vaughan:
I love that. That is such fantastic advice, and I agree. I’m gonna go back to what you’ve said first, which is to celebrate the wins. I think so oftentimes, we’re just like, go, go, go. Right? We never stop and look at the whole of our existence and career and be like, holy crap. I have accomplished a lot. I have already done so much. I have already survived a lot.
Amy Vaughan:
Mhmm. You know? And then going back to that proof time and time again, that’s such a great reminder, Deesha. And there’s something too obvious to likability, you know, there’s the likability penalty—penalty for women, you know, studies and research show that they are deemed less likable the higher they go, you know, and that definitely goes for women of color as well. So it’s like you’ve got that double whammy. And then yeah, the point you made, I think, is so important. One, you end up having this, like, likability exhaustion, right, because you’re constantly changing who you are and not living in your authentic self to make other people happy, which basically kinda just, like, chips away at your soul. Right? Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
So exhausting. But the point that you made there that was even more important, I think, for a lot of us that are trying to do our jobs and do it well is that it probably does impact your effectiveness. If you were literally just walking around not doing what needs to be done because you just wanna stay liked.
Deesha Dyer:
Yes.
Amy Vaughan:
You know? It’s a hard place to be in, but
Deesha Dyer:
It’s a tough place to be. It’s a tough place to be. And I think that there’s always space for us to improve and be better teammates. So there’s, it’s not, you know, I am who I am, kind of a thing that I did have to adapt to, but there was that like, you know, you like to belong, you wanna be part of a group. And so sometimes when you’re not, I can see how people are like, well, let me change myself to be more likable because it’s easier. But in the end, I could go home and look in the mirror and say that I remained who I was, or I could look at little black girls that would come to the White House and be like, I’m wearing these earrings. I’m wearing my nose ring, but I’m really good at my job. You know? So, like, does this really matter?
Amy Vaughan:
Be the example, right. No. You are. You are being an incredible model by, you know, showing up and being yourself. And I know that’s not easy for everybody and others—it comes more naturally. But I will say the other side benefit is I feel like that’s how you find your people.
Amy Vaughan:
You know? It’s just by being a little bit more yourself. And I agree with you. Don’t go out and be an asshole. Like, nobody wants to work with a jerk. Yeah. You know, be kind to others. Be respectful. Have pride in the work that you do. That’s really kind of a minimum. And then outside of that, it’s like, yeah, if you can kind of hold that space for yourself, you’re really creating an opportunity
Deesha Dyer:
100%.
Amy Vaughan:
And modeling for others. So I love it. I love it. Mhmm. Let’s talk about untapped talent because that’s another big focus for you. Yeah. What are some of the most common barriers you see for organizations that are creating that prevent diverse leadership from thriving?
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. I mean, there’s so many, but I would say
Amy Vaughan:
You’re like, where do we start? How much time have we got?
Deesha Dyer:
I’m like, I know when I read this question, I was like, we’ve been out, we’ve been out. But I would say there’s a couple of things. I think that, number one, we are still a society that values, like, the highest of degrees at all times. And I think that definitely there’s a space for education, and there’s a space for those who have gotten that education, the discipline. And I think that that is admirable. However, experience, I think, also plays a huge part in what people can do. You know, I’m obviously a walking testimony of that, that it wasn’t—I went to the White House with no degree, you know, and I still was able to climb the ladder. Obviously, I got my associate’s when I was there, but I think that we value education over experience.
Deesha Dyer:
And I think that we need to level that out a little bit more. And that’ll open the pool to some talent that, you know, kind of see things in a different perspective because they didn’t go through the formal education system. So they might have a better way of doing things. Right. So I think that there’s that. I think that we have not grappled with, like, what diversity means and have the benefit of diversity to our work environments or our industries. And that’s obviously not just race, it’s class, it’s gender, it’s sexual orientation. It is all the things.
Deesha Dyer:
It’s like veteran status, right? It’s a disability, it’s age. And I think that we have not done the work inside of many C-suites or companies to say, let’s fix our bias. Let’s fix like what’s going on with us before we just pile, you know, more diversity in to be harmed by us not fixing ourselves. You know? I think that’s—I think there’s definitely that. And then I think that we have to go outside of our, you know, if I work somewhere, I want my friends to be hired there too, especially my friends looking for a job. I’m like, let me call my friend, you know? But I think that we have to look outside of our friend groups and outside of our associations for talent. Like, you know, I—I shouldn’t be hiring all of my friends. You know what I mean? Like, it’s all that we think the same.
Deesha Dyer:
We—I want different opinions and different thoughts. And so I think that that’s another, you know, and then just the exposure. I mean, like, where are these jobs getting posted? Are they even real? Some of these jobs, you know, like, you know, what’s the exposure just to these top jobs, like helping people get their foot in the door, you know, is what I really try to do. You know, I can boost up your resume, your application, your name. The rest is up to you, you know, but just getting somebody, helping them get their foot in the door, I think is really important too. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
I agree. I love it. You started with the right point of, like, we have to fix the problem where it lies, which is at the top. And I think that’s one thing. For as much as I love, you know, the ERGs that have emerged over the last few years. I was a part of one before they even called ERGs. I was hoping to create one at an agency I worked at.
Deesha Dyer:
Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
And even at the time, it kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I’m like, why do I, a marginalized person in the office who didn’t create this problem, have to create a safe space and address and fix the problems and educate all the people? Yes. On the problem and not get paid to do it.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. There we go. You need that. There we go. I mean, and it and you care about it as an individual. Of course. And so you’re gonna pour all you can into it. And then next thing you know, you’re like, wait a minute.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. That’s exactly why I’m here. That is exactly why I’m here. I was a Together Digital member first, joined the community while I was at that agency because it was just really hard to really find true diversity and have what felt like safe conversations. I had to go outside the four walls of my company to do that. And luckily for me, my company was in agreement and they supported and sponsored me as a member for many years. And so, yeah, it is really—I think it is one of those things that has to start at the top. The other thing that you mentioned, I think that is important.
Amy Vaughan:
I keep hearing it over and over again that people need to be a culture add, not a culture fit. So we don’t fall into the group thing. Get it. It’s not about everybody thinking alike, but adding to.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
And then another point you made is so great, the job descriptions. Like, if you have any hand in helping write those, I think really looking at them and making sure that they aren’t, you know, ableist, that they’re not sexist, that they’re not, you know, really written in a way that might actually discourage somebody who doesn’t have a four-year degree, for example, even to apply. Like, make it, you know, make it specific about the job. Yeah. But you’re right. Live experience, you know, I mean, I went to college for four years and studied advertising design, but I’ve been in the industry for four times as long. Yeah. You know? Yes.
Deesha Dyer:
And even just, I always say, like, even just if somebody’s, you know, a secretary or an assistant at a place, like, it’s still like the exposure to, you know, whatever industry and whatever field and sector. And I think at a time when we’re talking about, you know, we’re worried about the work talent pipeline, you know, it’s just like, well, like, you know, it’s drying up here. If, you know, if we don’t, we don’t tap some people, some, you know, some, you know, untapped talent. So, yeah. Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
There’s a lot out there. Yeah. And I think for those who are in that position of feeling like they’re untapped talent, I do really think it is a lot of looking at the whole of your experience. I think that was interesting too. Again, y’all gotta go get the book. But you talk about, like, your upbringing and your involvement in the community and advocacy and all of those things. And so it wasn’t even about ever getting that four-year degree. It was every volunteer activity, every extracurricular activity that you had from a young age that really helped prepare you to do the job that you end up getting to do.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. And Amy and I think you can probably attest to this because I’m sure you did not, like, ten years ago say I’m gonna run this podcast, you know. But I think that that’s why staying true to yourself and what you love is so important because you think that like this is not going to, you know, I don’t know how this is going to benefit me in the future or if it even will. So I think we’ve gotten to a space where we look at everything that we do as like, can I monetize this? Can I use this on the internet? And I’m not discouraging that ever. But let’s not forget about our creativity and curiosity and just our basic love for things. And I think for me going along, like, you know, being a hip hop journalist, and that was because I really wanted to write about women in the culture.
Deesha Dyer:
And I was like, I’m so sick of women being just like, oh, we’re just dancers and videos. I’m like, no, there’s like women producers and rappers and artists, graffiti artists that should be held up. And so I started writing about them, right? And then fast forward to the White House where it was like this job, where it was my role to bring in my culture, you know, and music. And I’m like, I never thought back then I was like, I’m doing this so this can benefit me years later. So I think that we have to remember our hobbies and our creativity and our curiosity of what we love to do. And I feel like I really do truly feel like things do align, you know, you just don’t know when you don’t know how. But things do align. And so that’s another, that’s another, you know, you know, making the case for staying true to what you love and who you are.
Amy Vaughan:
Absolutely. Yeah. I went to the 3% conference a former boss at another agency sent me, and that was all about how only 3% of creative directors were women at the time. It was 2012. And that was kind of the impetus that got me interested. And then, I got to go another year at this other agency. That’s when we started the ERG. And you’re so right.
Amy Vaughan:
Like, I just kinda followed that passion of championing and advocating for women because up to that point, I had a lot of privilege. I didn’t really recognize and realize, like, I had a lot of great male allies and advocates. Mhmm. You know? And because of that, I was able to move through the ranks of agencies and get to Creative Director at a fairly decent age, you know, considering I actually took a year gap from school, went back to school, and then actually took another two-year hiatus because of moving outside of the country, and just doing freelance jobs while I was there. So, yeah, I mean, it really is the summation of your whole experience and really following your passions that helps you find your purpose and opportunities to the point that, like you, I was—I mean, I didn’t expect it. I was standing in the hallway of our national conference for Together Digital. Ironically, the founder ran for congress just one time. She didn’t, she didn’t make it, but she tried.
Amy Vaughan:
The goal was to kinda not win, kind of lay the groundwork, and then come back and run again, but it was a lot for her. Learned a lot about running for political office, tangentially. Yes. It sure is. And so, anyways, in that process, I was like, okay. That’s great. You’re gonna run for Congress, but what about our community? What about this business? She’s like, you run it. Like, you’ve been running our Cincinnati chapter.
Amy Vaughan:
You wanna run a business. Do it. I was like, what? He—what? So you’re right. Five, ten years ago, if you would have told me I’d be running a company and doing podcasts and talking to amazing women like you, I’d have been like, that sounds awesome and highly unlikely. But, again, yeah, following your passion, staying true to yourself, you know, both of us, hopefully, for our listeners are serving as, you know, we’re not we’re not special cases, guys. There’s more like us out there. We just gotta talk about it more.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. And I think that it also excites me because I’m excited to see what else I could do. Yeah. You know, I think that when I left the White House, everybody was like, what’s next? What’s next? I’m like, sleep. I’m like, but then also just like, I don’t know. That’s—and that’s, like, exciting and terrifying at the same time, but it’s like, I like, I know I’m gonna work and I know I’m gonna do this, but, like, what else is gonna come? And that’s to me, that’s exciting that I get to, like, be that curious. You know?
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. I love it. Let’s talk about that next phase and next chapter. So you’re the founder and CEO of Hook and Fasten. Mhmm. How do you help companies move beyond performative commitments to equity and create meaningful, sustainable change, especially in times like these?
Deesha Dyer:
Yes. I think, you know, the way that we do it, I just again, going back to what I love and what I’ve always done is really being in community. So I think that for us, what we do with companies is that we say, you know, what are you passionate about? What are your employees passionate about? Or what’s your industry? Like, what, you know, what product do you have? And how can we get that to communities in a way that is going to either eliminate a need—food, hunger, housing, whatever it is—or alleviate a need. Right? And so we serve as the liaisons, like the corporate social responsibility consultants. Right? We serve as that between the corporations and the organizations. And I think that too oftentimes when we do community work and we love it and I think that our hearts are very well-intentioned, most people, they don’t ask the community, what do you need? How can we help? You know, if we’re asking you to come in and brainstorm on something, are you getting paid for that? You know? Yeah. Do you have something that we can just enhance that? You know? Yeah. Do you have something that we can just enhance that? You know? Yeah. So right now, you know, while the world is really on a very much—access is like tipped over in many ways, we are very focusing on, you know, the essentials, you know, people being able to eat, being able to be housed, employment. And so we’re getting companies now pouring into, like, local food banks, right, and local housing and giving vouchers and things like that because we’re trying to show that, yes, you know, politics is politics, but we all agree that people deserve food and they deserve housing.
Deesha Dyer:
Right? So if we can take a corporation and say, let’s create something where you’re able to partner with the local food banks in your area to, like, help with the deficit they just experienced with the shortage. We’re not asking you to get political or make comments. We’re asking you just to help feed people. And so that is what we create. We create the strategy, the campaign, we execute it, or sometimes we just advise on it too. People just kind of need that. So that’s what we do. And, and, you know, I love and I hate the work, like, right, I love it because I love what I get to do, but I hate that I have to do it.
Amy Vaughan:
Right? Right. Exactly. Yeah. I say that a lot of times too. My daughter will ask me, “Mom, do you think I’ll run Together Digital when I’m older?” I was like, “Honey, I would like to think that we don’t need affinity groups because everything’s fine and everything’s—but, you know, at the rate we’re going, probably not. Not. So, yeah, sure. If you wanna run it, it’s yours, darling.”
Amy Vaughan:
But you—I love that. You make such a great point. You know, you think about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Right? And there’s, like, that whole self-actualization portion that’s at the top, but that’s really only something you can start to work into until you’ve had those basic needs met. And so kind of the shift—I don’t wanna say downshifting, but downshifting almost to get into that part of, like, people’s needs. Mhmm. To me, anyways, it is more effective. I will say from, like, a marketing community standpoint, I think it’s been a long-held conversation for us more than, I think, even the recent year or two has shown that, you know, a lot of companies that are, you know, saying they’re doing diversity efforts, it’s like they’re not truly having impact or looking at the numbers or changing the numbers. It’s like, let’s slap up something on our website. Let’s put up something on our social media.
Deesha Dyer:
Right.
Amy Vaughan:
And while I still want to—I would still like to see, and I know a lot of our community would still like to see businesses supporting diversity, equity, and inclusion. At the same time, it’s like, okay. Well, if we can’t all find a way to agree on that, can we at least—I love this. Like, you like you said, can we at least agree people need food and housing? And can we put some impact there? Can we help with education so that we are training up a new workforce so that we do have diverse, you know, folks to hire from? Things like that.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
I think it’s an amazing way to continue to create impact in what feels like a hard time to really do what you need to do, to make an impact. So thank you for the work you’re doing there. I’m so glad that’s the direction you chose.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. No. And I love it. And I think that even when it comes to what you were speaking of about diversity and stuff, you know, when we do things like, you know, scholarship programs or mentorship programs between communities, organizations, or schools, you know, one of my first things is what work have you done as a company or what can we help you with to make sure that this is a safe environment for that student that you want to be in,
Amy Vaughan:
Yes.
Deesha Dyer:
You know? Because again, I don’t want to just generate the wheel of like, we’ve got these scholars and you’re like, right, but if they had a bad experience, you know, or they would treat it this way, then, you know, did we do our job? And so we have to ask that question beforehand about the work that’s being done, you know, in order to start to bring some of these young students or, you know, career—second career people into the workplace.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. I think it’s so important too. And, I mean, eventually, businesses are gonna catch up because that work pool, that talent that’s coming in, they care about those things. They’re paying attention. And if it doesn’t feel like a safe space for them, they’re more than happy to leave.
Deesha Dyer:
Yes. Yes. Yes. They are—they are an outspoken generation coming up and, you know, and so yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. I love it. Alright. So let’s talk—let’s shift back to the book a little bit. The title is Undiplomatic and it suggests breaking from conventions. What aspects of traditional leadership do you think we need to leave behind to create more inclusive spaces? I mean, that’s kind of a nice segue from our last bit of conversation.
Deesha Dyer:
Yes. I think that what we need to leave behind is that everybody has to come the same way for it to succeed. Like, and that it’s not just the education route that I’m speaking of, but even like this mentality of, you know, I suffered or not even suffered, I went through, you know, three rounds of this, and so you have to do it too to get where I get. Or, you know, I had to deal with, you know, like, you know, being a junior associate for five years, so you have to deal with that too.
Amy Vaughan:
Right.
Deesha Dyer:
So I think that we need to leave behind the fact that, like, you have to have, like, this really rough route. Like, for me, I think of, you know, I don’t want you to have it as hard as I did. Like, I would like—I would like to leave it easier for you. That doesn’t mean that that doesn’t mean that, like, you get off scot-free or, like, you don’t hurt anything or you cut corners, but it’s just like, why should you have to deal with all of this? Like, I’m trying to make this easier for you so there’s other battles. So I think some of those, those, those—not just the education, but also like, you know, I walk five miles in the snow, so you have to do that too in order to be strong in your life. I think I can get stronger. So I think that that’s one thing I think we definitely should leave behind. And then I think that we should leave behind, like, the systems of how people get promotions and people become leaders even.
Deesha Dyer:
I mean, it’s—it’s archaic. It’s not—it’s not a lot of time based on merit. It’s a lot of it. It’s based on, you’ve been here for ten years, you know, but it’s just like, right. But if somebody’s been here for eight years, but they’re really good and maybe didn’t make any, you know, like, are we, can we look at that a little bit? So I think that the way we do promotions into leadership, and then with the way we recruit to the C-suite, I think could definitely be left behind. I have big grapes about just like, you know, we—I feel like sometimes we don’t really move people up. We just move people around.
Amy Vaughan:
Oh, yeah.
Deesha Dyer:
Sometimes, like, like, we need to move people up to new perspectives versus moving just the same people around. So those are some things I think of when you ask that.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. Yeah. I think that’s so great. And you’re right. Like, I don’t know why there seems to be this sense of, like, an initiation. This isn’t the army. We’re not, like, you know, we’re not getting in and fighting battles and wars and things like that. Hopefully not.
Amy Vaughan:
But, like, I—I even see that among other women. Right? Where I hate to say it. This is my call to, you know, all of our women. It’s interesting. Together Digital, our members skew a little older, so 35 is our median age. But we’ve got a lot of active members that are in their fifties and even in their sixties, and we actually just launched a retiree membership because I have women that are like, “I’m on a fixed income. I still wanna come to the community. I wanna be a part of the community.” Yeah. It’s like, abso-freaking-lutely. They get the student rate because it’s like you’re a student again, but it’s in a whole different way.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. 100%.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. I’ve heard women say, you know, “Well, I didn’t have anybody to mentor me or I didn’t have anybody explain all this to me. I had to work hard to get here.” So other women—so this is my call to you, that that’s really not the way it needs to be. Yeah. I know. I love what you said. I was like, doing my little praise hands in my head as you were saying, like, “I want to make it easier for the people that are coming up behind me.” And I think that’s such a great, great mindset. I think that’s a mindset we all need to share. Yeah. I love that. Alright. So you’ve worked at the intersection of public service and social impact. How do you see the relationship between corporate responsibility and equity evolving over the coming years?
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. You know, it’s interesting because when I think about equity and I think about, to me, how simple it should be that if you have something, the person next to you should also have something. Right. And it boggles me that people argue about that or have issues with that, but I think a lot of that’s power dynamics, like, Rudolf, you know, and just I wanna are powerful, and I—you know, a lot of its power and ego and many, many things that many women have experienced. But I do see the fact that, you know, our empathy is wrapped up in equity. Like, you know, we should want somebody to have food and food choices. Right? We should want somebody to be able to house themselves. And we’re not talking about, you know, the bottom of the barrel here. Like, we shouldn’t be like, “Well, you know, you have something.”
Deesha Dyer:
You know, you—you know, you have this meal, and we know it’s not healthy for you, but at least you have something. You know what I mean? So I think that I look at it like corporations have the assets, whether it’s, you know, products, whether it’s funds, whether it’s time, whether it’s services or resources, whatever it is, to be able to even that out. Like, right? Like, we—we can’t ask nonprofits to continue doing it with the funding cuts and so many other things. And then they are not making enough money to even, you know, a lot of them don’t make a lot of money. So they’re, they have a high turnover, but I see them working together. It’s saying that like, we, we know and believe that you deserve what we have on our tables. You deserve the house that we have. And to make that happen, we can make that happen.
Deesha Dyer:
And I think that if businesses work together, you know, we can solve it. You know? There shouldn’t be a housing crisis. There shouldn’t be, you know, a food price. There shouldn’t be these things. There is. Right? And there’s people who are working to, you know, mitigate that. But for me, on my end, I’m like, well, I need to figure out the person that needs to eat right today—like, right now. Like, you know what I mean? Like, like, what’s for dinner? Like, we can work on the policy, but what’s for dinner? And I think that corporations without, again, getting into policy and policies can have really, really, really, really important grades in that.
Amy Vaughan:
Agreed. Yeah. And it is—it always baffled me as well. I don’t know. It’s one of those things where it’s like, just—yeah, somebody else has doesn’t mean I have less.
Deesha Dyer:
Yes, yes.
Amy Vaughan:
It just means that everybody moves forward. It’s like the economic empowerment or the—or the opportunity to empower, you know, us all economically only just makes our whole economy stronger.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. 100%.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s so weird. It’s like, it’s just really how economics work. Right. I don’t know. It’s like, why doesn’t it make sense?
Deesha Dyer:
Right. And I think that a lot of us too, it’s just like, I am happy. Like, please, like, you know, I hope that you can get the same things I have or even more. Like, I think that it is a power thing where I don’t have that in me. And I don’t know if it’s how I grew up or whatever, but I don’t have it in me to feel that way, to feel that if you have something that I that, you know, that, you know, somehow you’re—I’m threatened by your existence or your, you know, the fact that you can eat. Like, I just don’t get it. But I think that’s a classism thing that we’ve, that we’ve got to work on.
Amy Vaughan:
Definitely. Yeah, I agree. I would go down the rabbit hole there too, for sure. If any of you guys haven’t read the book, Caste, check that one out. That’s a good one to talk about those social class dynamics and how it is really true across all, all, different types of societies. So yeah. Alright. So many of our members and listeners are working to create impact in what feels like uncertain times. What are some things that anchor your approach to creating meaningful, meaningful change when you’re facing obstacles? And I alluded to a couple, but wasn’t sure if you had any other good examples.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. No. I think, what I would say I mean, in addition to a couple of things I said, but I think that, like, hobbies and those things are—like, remembering, you know, who I was as a child and the things I loved to do back then, I think are just so important to me because it gets me in touch with, like, the Deesha before. Yeah. You know, I had to start paying bills and before, like, I could digest the news and before social media. It’s like, “Oh, yeah. I remember who I was before that.” Like, this person would just like, explore. And I think that getting in touch with that kind of, like, takes you back to a more innocent time when you weren’t like, we all are influenced by different things every day, all the time. And so I say that for people to really lean into their hobbies, so they’re not frivolous, and you’re not wasting time and all these things. You’re getting in touch with who you were before then. I think that that’s extremely important. And I think the other thing, which I love is, like, getting enough sleep. You know, I’m sure like the women listening probably who were especially over 40, like, like we used to be able to stay up. That’s not an option.
Amy Vaughan:
Nope. 09:30 is done.
Deesha Dyer:
Right. Or like, we’ll be able to like, go, you know, like stay up and then we’ll be, we’re used to, we used to be like, we’re fine the next day. Now I’m, I’m, it’s not, I’m not pleasant. Like I need to sleep, I need to lay down. Like I need to, so I think that that’s really important and vital, you know, as we get older to make sure we take care of our bodies in that way.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. I agree. Actually, that’s our book for April. So members, if you’re listening, you still have about ten days before we do our next book discussion. We’re talking about Sacred Rest.
Deesha Dyer:
Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s this month’s book and theme. So yeah. And there’s even a quiz you can take to learn about what kind of rest you need. Wow. Because there’s obviously different forms being just sleep, but to be aware of that. And I love what you said. It made me think about what I’m always telling myself. It’s like how in a moment when I’m feeling stressed, I’m like, how would I—how would I make eight-year-old Amy happy right now?
Deesha Dyer:
Yes. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Is it gonna go and get ice cream? Is it gonna go for a walk in the woods? Is it gonna be sitting down and coloring? Like, yeah. That’s kind of how I ended up finding, like, my way back to my hobbies and things that I enjoyed was like exactly what you said, Deesha. It was just I thought back to a time and an age when social conditioning had not gotten a hold of me yet. Yeah. And I just liked what I liked. And so that’s that’s that’s a good way to kind of a good measure to kind of get back to you and figure out what it is that you love doing Yeah. Before the world really interfered.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. 100%. And it’s like the saying goes with that. And I said, hear that saying and be like, what does that even mean? But now it makes so much sense.
Amy Vaughan:
Yep. Right? Exactly. Alright. We’ve got a couple questions left that life listeners—don’t be shy. You’re more than welcome to drop questions into the chat if you have them. We’d love to hear from you if you have any questions for Deesha. Looking at your career journey, Deesha, what is a commonly held belief about professional advancement that you’ve completely changed your mind about?
Deesha Dyer:
I think, what I would say to this is, I think I changed my mind that everybody else is smarter than me and that’s why they’ve gotten farther than me in different ways. I think I’ve definitely changed my mind about that because now I know that’s not true. Like, I—I believe that, there are definitely people smarter than me, a %, and that’s fine. I think that a lot of its opportunity and a lot of its chance and a lot of its confidence about going for something. So I would say that one of the biggest things that I think is that, like, everyone else is smarter than me, and that’s why they’ve all moved up. That’s why they’re in the positions that they are. But a lot of times it’s really like an opportunity and who you know.
Amy Vaughan:
Exactly. Oh, that’s why I’m writing and talking a lot about the networking gap. It’s—I think it is. It’s a deficit for women in the sense that, you know, networking is not necessarily, you know, wasn’t built with women in mind. It’s a bit archaic in the ways in which we do it. Doesn’t encourage you to often be authentic. It was really funny. I was actually at a university doing a talk to the P S S or PRSSA, so public relations, student group. And, you know, I gave him one tip and we were talking a bit about, you know, how do you start a conversation when you feel anxious and nervous. And the gal, one of my friends who was speaking with me, talked about how, you know, she loves to compliment people on what they’re wearing. But as I looked out at the audience, like, I’ll email these kids, right, college kids, blue and white and black. And it was the color palette. I wore this, and subconsciously, I’m at OSU by the way. Mhmm. Big old red dress.
Amy Vaughan:
I didn’t even think about it. I got there. I was like, why do I do these things? And I really do. How sometimes, like, at one time I showed up to present a deck for somebody as an emcee, and I literally the shirt I picked out matched the deck. It just stuck in my mind, and I saw the shirt while I was out. I was like, I love that shirt. I’m buying that for a bit. And then I show up there like, “Amy, do you realize your shirt matches the presentation now?” I was like, no. But it—For me, no. Right? So this is my tip: “By the way, I’m not sure if it’s a dress or, like, a blouse, but I love your top.”
Deesha Dyer:
Thank you.
Amy Vaughan:
It’s gorgeous. I love it. And so, like, for me, when I go out, you know, I honestly try to stick out a little bit, you know, by wearing something to give people the opportunity to strike up a conversation and comment about something I’m wearing because Ah. Those are the people I find too.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
And she was like, my friend Bridgette was like, I never thought about that. But, yeah, networking is a whole, and, you know, really, I mean, there’s so many, so many guys out there on the golf course right now Yeah. Shaking hands, making deals that, you know, are making them billions of dollars. It’s like, how do we shift that dynamic to where we make networking more accessible and equitable for all so that we all can be in the presence of opportunity? Because, like, both you and I, again, we’re, you know, offered those opportunities. And I do agree too that, like, I think that sense of us as women having to feel like we’re never smart enough.
Deesha Dyer:
Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
I mean, I love my ladies. You’re our Together Digital Group. They are here because they are constant learners. Mhmm. And I think that’s good. I think it’s a part of who they are, but I also do think a part of it is what you’re saying. It’s like we never—how many certifications can I get? How many degrees can I get? Like, what is it gonna take for me to kind of move up? And again, in the research for my book on the networking gap, education does not close the pay gap.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Unfortunately, ladies. I’m so sorry. Yeah.
Deesha Dyer:
It’s unfortunate. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Not to say you should ever stop learning. Huge fear of that.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. Of course.
Amy Vaughan:
But at the same time, you know, it’s really not getting us further or faster.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. And I will say that I don’t know if you remember, but they’re like a couple years ago, I think when I was at the White House, there was this whole thing around women should learn how to golf, you know, because that always isn’t
Amy Vaughan:
I flipped some tables over that.
Deesha Dyer:
So it was just like, okay. Like, conform. Now I have to, like, spend money to, like, like, I was just like, I’m not gonna do that. But I got that advice often.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah.
Deesha Dyer:
Like, you should learn how to golf.
Amy Vaughan:
Right. And it’s so inaccessible from a financial standpoint, from, like, an ability standpoint. You know, there’s so many reasons why it might not. Not that I have anything against golf. Don’t get me wrong. I like it. I don’t mind it. I play it with family for fun, but, yeah, it is kind of the—Yeah. I remember reading that article, and it was cited in my book. And I’m like, are you kidding me? You’re like, women just conform and do what the men are doing, and that way that’s how you move up. It’s like, really? Is that the way it should be, though?
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That’s why we’re here. That’s why we’re here. We’re doing
Amy Vaughan:
That’s why we’re doing what we’re doing. Right? Alright. One more question before we go into the Power Round, which are our fun, fast questions. For those in our community who feel that they’re on a nontraditional path, which actually in digital and marketing is very common. What advice do you give about leveraging their unique perspective and leadership strengths?
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. The first thing I would say is, like, believe in yourself and your ability and your work. Like, I feel like you could take as many classes as you want, you could do as many networking events as you want, you can build the most amazing portfolio, but if you don’t believe in the product you’re standing behind or the person that you see in the mirror, things are going—it’s going to, like, you can’t keep up the facade for long, like before somebody’s going to notice or you’re going to crack, right? So I would say to believe in your abilities and believe in your talent even if it doesn’t look like somebody else’s, which leads me to the second one of comparing. Like, I get it. Like, I get it. I still compare myself to people. My book came out and I was like, am I gonna sell as much as this person? Am I gonna hit this list? Like, I completely understand that, but what I would say is remember that you are one of one. So your perspective, your talent, all of those things, nobody else is going to bring, which means that your path is going to look different to someone else’s.
Deesha Dyer:
And I know we all hear it, but I’m going to reiterate that you don’t know what people have going on. Like some of them look at the bestseller list and I found out like people were able to buy thousands of their books or whatever. And I’m like, oh my goodness, why didn’t I, you know, but I’m like, but I needed that money. Like I couldn’t do that. I needed that money for other things. So watch your comparison because especially with social media and everything nowadays, things look way easier than what they are. And also just know that, like, your life doesn’t have to be supersized, like, for real for real. Like, you know, like, I’m starting to learn that I love the simple things as we talked about earlier.
Deesha Dyer:
You know, going for a walk in the woods, just listening to some music, like, going and sitting by myself and journaling at a coffee shop. Like, that’s okay. Like, we don’t have to have a curated life. Like, it’s about being healthy, being happy, and believing that, you know, you’re one of one and that you are, you know, you’re worthy of everything that comes to you. And then don’t be afraid of no’s y’all. Like, I know it’s hard. I hate hearing no. It’s so devastating to me when somebody’s like, “No, thank you.” And I’m like, what? Or like, you know, you’re really great, but—and I’m like, but wait a minute. I work for Barack Obama. Why did—why?
Amy Vaughan:
Right?
Deesha Dyer:
You know? But I have to take it on the chin like everybody else and say, okay. That was just a circumstance. It’s no indication of my value or worth. I just didn’t—I just didn’t get it. So know the difference in that too—that sometimes it’s just circumstance. It’s not you.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. Exactly. I think, yeah, that’s great advice for our job seekers out there right now too. I hear that a lot. Like, you even said something earlier, like, is that job posting even real? Because there are a lot of people fishing out there for, like, to build their bench, but not actually hiring, when, you know, being on the opposite side and looking for and hiring talent, I mean, I can tell you, like, we are a small business. We have, like, three, four people with us at any given time. And, you know, we post up a job, and I got, like, 700 resumes in two days. I had to turn the job posting off because I couldn’t. I’m like, how am I gonna go through all these? How am I gonna respond to each of these individuals? So, you know, whether it’s a small company, big company, you kind of never know.
Amy Vaughan:
And I know on the recruiting side, people are cutting down on that on this staff there. So it might be one person getting thousands. You know? So really just know that, yeah, there’s not always you. It—it could be definitely a theme thing. And I wholeheartedly agree with you too. One of my common phrases is, you know, “comparison is the thief of joy.” Mhmm.
Amy Vaughan:
You know? It’s just—it keeps—we—you can be such a vacuum for your, like, emotions. And if you find yourself getting jealous or envious, another thing I like to remind myself is that envy is something you should actually pay attention to because it’s showing you what you want. Maybe the things that you’re denying yourself and not recognizing for yourself, even if it’s kind of vain or kind of, like, whatever. It’s telling you that there’s something out there that you want and you need to figure out how to get it for yourself.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. And you’re allowed to. Like, you’re allowed to want more too. Like, you’re allowed to want more. You’re allowed to store—you’re allowed to do these things. And I think that we just think that we have to stay in the neat tidy box until somebody unwraps it and lets us out,
Amy Vaughan:
you know? Yeah. Don’t wait for permission, ladies. No. Or guys, if you’re listening, you need to hear it. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. That’s my next book too. I keep joking—I’m Unambitious. I think our generation, especially Deesha, has been conditioned to be like, we’re just workaholics, man. You know, let’s get the degree, get the house, get the family, all of this. And then it’s like, what, why am I doing all this? And we’re all having these quarter midlife crises, you know, induced by, like, the world and society in general as well. And it’s, it’s, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we are constantly striving, and it’s always about how do I do better, better, better, better, better instead of just being. Mhmm. So
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Vaughan:
Going off of the—you just realized that you’re Undiplomatic and I’m not ambitious. I love it. Alright. Let’s see. Oh, that was our last question there, and our chat’s quiet. So I’m gonna move into the Power Round. Sounds good. What is one leadership quality that you wish was taught in every classroom?
Deesha Dyer:
Feedback.
Amy Vaughan:
Oh, yeah.
Deesha Dyer:
You had to give and receive.
Amy Vaughan:
That is a fantastic one. Yeah. That’s a tough one, but, yeah, fantastic. Most unexpected object in your office that inspires your work? I know you’re not in your office right now because you’re
Deesha Dyer:
No. No. But I—I, but there’s an answer to this. I would say there’s a poster of the Philadelphia sports teams.
Amy Vaughan:
Nice. I love it. Yeah.
Deesha Dyer:
I would say that.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s great. And that aligns. That’s very authentically you, Deesha.
Deesha Dyer:
Yes. Yes. Very much so. Very much so.
Amy Vaughan:
And on that note, we’re gonna—few—we’re gonna infuse two of your passions, authentic leadership and jazz because I wanted you to finish the sentence, or you could say R and B. Authentic leadership is like jazz because
Deesha Dyer:
It’s unpredictable and ever-evolving.
Amy Vaughan:
Yeah. I kinda like jazz too because it’s like you got that whole—
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s ever evolving. And I think about, like, the jazz of, like, the thirties, twenties and thirties and the jazz of today. Like, it’s ever evolving.
Amy Vaughan:
I love it. That’s a fantastic answer. Mhmm. What is the first thing you do when imposter syndrome tries to creep back in?
Deesha Dyer:
I meditate. I love it. Or pray if—if people believe in that, but I would say meditate or pray.
Amy Vaughan:
That’s so great. Awesome. Alright, Deesha. That was it. You flew through those. Great job.
Deesha Dyer:
Okay.
Amy Vaughan:
Thank you so much for joining us.
Deesha Dyer:
Thank you for having me.
Amy Vaughan:
Yes. Absolutely. All of your insights on nontraditional leadership paths and creating authentic impact are so valuable for communities like ours. So I appreciate you being here with us again and for our amazing listeners. They’re dropping in and saying this was awesome. So thank you. Thank you, Ellen, for listening in. For everyone watching, remember that the Power Lounge recordings are available to everyone, free after the event.
Amy Vaughan:
You can check us out on YouTube. You can also basically follow and subscribe to any place that you listen to your podcast. And if you’re not a Together Digital member yet, I invite you to join our community of amazing, smart, talented, and very generous women in digital, who are always looking to share their knowledge, power, and connections. Again, togetherindigital.com, if you wanna check that out and learn more about our amazing membership benefits outside of just really finding your professional soulmates that just really transition any and every job in every stage of life.
Deesha Dyer:
Yeah. I’m like, I need to check it out.
Amy Vaughan:
Check it out, girlfriend. We’ve got—I yeah. I’ll send you the details. Missy, Pamela, oh, we’re getting all kinds of love in the chat, so I wanna make sure you see that before we hop off here, ADeesha. Alright. Thank you all again for listening. We hope to see you all next week, on the Power Lounge. Until then, everyone, keep asking, keep giving, and keep growing. We’ll see you next week. Bye.
Deesha Dyer:
Bye.
