From the Sidelines To The Spotlight

Amy Vaughan

Welcome to our weekly Power Lounge, your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn and I am the owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power and connections. Join the movement at wwwtogetherindigitalcom. Let’s get started Today. We will learn how to use your voice and step up bravely up to the stage with Sally Daisy. Sally is an award-winning TEDx speaker and coach whose mission is to empower leaders to become change makers by stepping into the spotlight. After 20 years of honing her craft, sally nudges people to step onto the stages of all kinds and speak their story with authenticity, clarity and courage. Sally has spoken in front of thousands of people, coached hundreds of speakers and created countless moving moments between speakers and audiences. Sally is the host of this Move Me, a noteworthy podcast about the art of moving your audience, which sits at the world’s top 2% of podcast hashtag Goal Sally. She is also listed at the top 3% of women business speakers by eSpeakerscom. In her book, which you can get now, speaking Story is out and available. We’re thrilled to have you here with us today, sally. Thank you so much for joining us.

Sally Z

Yeah, thank you for having me. I’m so excited. I was like can I, can I? You were muted. I’m like should I be muted? There was, there was a whole moment, but we’re here. It’s making it happen.

Amy Vaughan

You said it. You’re like pushing. It was pushing all the buttons. I’m like, okay, I recorded, okay I did this, and then, yeah, that’s that’s life. And then I don’t know if you could hear. I think I think there’ll be okay. My kids are home because you know, it’s a random winter break time because we didn’t just have a whole holiday break and they just came bounding up.

Sally Z

It’s February. Every week is a four day school week for some reason in February, I don’t know what is up with that.

Amy Vaughan

I don’t know, did my kids ever go to school anymore?

Sally Z

Okay, let’s talk about what we’re really here talking about, which is really, and your ability to help women take the stage.

Amy Vaughan

I think this is such an important thing for so many I can’t tell you how many women that I speak to that that it will say you know it’s on my list of professional goals to do more speaking, yet, yeah, they don’t really step into it because it’s freaking terrifying. And I have to give some credit to our organization and together, digital and its founder, who kind of just pushed me on the stage and was like one day, since you’re going to emcee this event and really, kind of just having been thrown into the deep end, have been able to sort of hone in and kind of craft and grow my skills. But I am so excited to talk to you today because, again, someone who’s legit gone through the work and you coach and train others to sort of dig in and get to know more about how to always be improving in this area, because I think that’s just the best way to approach it right Is to keep on learning and keep on growing with it. But for starters, I would love for you to share a little bit about your personal journey and what led you specifically to become a TEDx speaker and coach.

Sally Z

Yeah. So, and just to be clear, I have done a TEDx and I’ve coached other people on their TEDx talks. But I work with people in all different kinds of facets, from, you know, c-suite executives who do a lot of speaking Maybe you don’t love it, but it’s a part of their gig and it’s part of their building and then I work with people who want to build speaking as a part of their business and as a revenue generator or lead generator in their business solopreneurs, entrepreneurs, small business owners of all kinds. So it’s a really wide gamut and I love that because for me, it’s my love of what is possible when we use our voice and when we’re standing up, standing up in front of other people and I use all of these words really loosely stage speaker audience. We’re just going to really be generous with these definitions today. I experienced from a really young age about how powerful that can be. I happened to go to a high school where I was coached by truly some of the best speech coaches in the country. Their names are on placards everywhere. I just got lucky. I got lucky, and so they really helped me formulate this and recognize this talent that I had and a gift towards it. I share that, with just a little bit of hesitation because and you mentioned this a lot of people want to do this but kind of live in the space of. I love to do this. I recognize how powerful this can be. I also think I could be really good at it, but can I, should? I Do? I have what it takes. Especially, there’s something about speaking where it feels like it only belongs to the people who already identify as a performer in some way or an extrovert, or they have a certain look, or. I mean there’s so many stories we tell ourselves about who can do this For me. I think I just got lucky and people saw it in me at a young age and so I globed onto that and so was able to grow into that space and have been doing it professionally since I was like 24, with a little time I spent doing theater in there as well. It just, I think, is a beautiful art form and it’s special and it’s different than writing. It’s different than a lot of the other ways that we can influence and connect to our audience or our customers, our clients, whoever they are. There’s something about speaking that is so innately human and we recognize that it’s vulnerable and it’s scary, and so there’s some admiration and an authority that automatically comes with us into this moment. So simultaneously I fell into it at a young age, but it is an ongoing iterative journey of growth and development. For sure, yeah, yeah, definitely. I took you on like a whole tour there.

Amy Vaughan

We love hearing the journey. I think that’s one of the best ways to again start to get to know somebody right? It’s my favorite Fred Rogers quote you can’t help but fall in love with somebody after you’ve heard their story, and I think a lot of us could relate to that. I think when we are younger, we are less ashamed of what we have to say and we are less afraid of speaking out, and so it’s like how can you sort of tap into that youthful and I would say, with the word, being naive about? what it might mean if you screw up, you know, kind of really embracing the power and the strength of what it means to stand up and speak, because it is very transformative I absolutely agree with you and it can be very terrifying but also immensely empowering. I’m curious, like let’s talk about your book, for those who are listening to the podcast. I can’t see the beautiful book and cover that you have behind you, but I love that bookshelf full of books, thank, you what? inspired you to write your speaking story and what do you hope readers are going to take away from it?

Sally Z

Yeah, so part of my journey as a speaker started talking to teenagers, and I would. I was traveling the country with a nonprofit organization talking to young people about these big, important ideas like how to treat each other with more kindness and how to act with courage and live with more self-respect and respect towards others, and these really big, important ideas. And at that point, as a speaker, I really trusted my ability to deliver a powerful message. But I had not yet figured out how to tell an engaging, captivating story and I didn’t recognize that, that challenge. Until you’re standing in front of teenagers who have a really high bar and they’re like don’t, don’t lecture me, lady, don’t hand me your beautiful one-liners. They’re just like I don’t care. Why would I care about this? Yet? And so I remember this moment, standing in front of you know 150 seventh graders and realizing that I did not have their attention and I cared enough about this message that I bypassed the script as I had it developed and that I thought was really beautiful and powerful and impactful, and went right towards a story and dove into this story about a classmate, a young man named John. And I just remember, as I was started telling the story about John. It was like magic. The kids, who had previously been not paying any attention at all, like literally turned away from me and the room got quieter. Their heads lifted up, they leaned in and I remember thinking oh, the story. The story is the messenger, the story is the tool. The story is so, so essential and, as I went on, I know teenagers are. It’s such a great example because everyone’s like oh yeah you’re a true star. They are the tough crowd. Right, they’re a tough crowd, but, truth be told, I’ve met a lot of really tough adult audiences.

Amy Vaughan

Absolutely so adult.

Sally Z

They’re just hiding it a little bit more. They’re pretending a little bit more. Yeah, so the same strategies apply and I actually went to grad school to dig into, like, why was the story so compelling? And studied, persuasion, and persuasion requires emotion and also requires emotion, but manipulation does not have any test against it. So persuasion is emotion plus logic and ethics. Altogether, we need all of those. But a lot of people who, when they are trying to persuade their audience, think of a speaking moment. They’re like I’ve got this idea. I want people to really be compelled by and we think, if I just share the right logical argument, if I share the right kind of information, that’s going to pull them in. And in the same way as me standing in front of a bunch of seventh graders, if you cannot somehow communicate why this matters through a motive connection, they’re not going to care. Yep, they just are not going to care. And so what came out of that study was that stories are the perfect tool for us to be able to most effectively turn on the brain. Science that stories deliver for us and more humanely, more ethically, close the gap between you and your audience and pull them in closer to you so that they care about this thing that you’re talking about, so that you can really make whatever kind of selling conversation you’re in or just to get people engaged in what you’re talking about. Stories are the tool, so it’s all in this book. I have spent the last 25 years really putting it to work with my clients and I just finally got to it and put it on paper.

Amy Vaughan

It took too long to do it right here. It’s a well researched book, you mean right?

Sally Z

Well.

Amy Vaughan

I can’t help but agree. I mean, I know it’s a buzzword that gets thrown around often and marketing and advertising story is important, but you really do. You need to give people the chance to relate, because if they don’t see any sort of relatable scenario or potential benefit for them, then why would they spend their precious time continuing to listen? I also read a really quick article. I skimmed a really quick article that I thought was really interesting and I’m trying to remember where the source was, but it was just in my newsfeed and it was talking about persuasion and one of the most persuasive words is because. So, if you think about it, the example is you know, I need to use the. If you’re asking somebody, you’re somebody else’s in front of you, you need to use the copy machine. If that people still use those things copy machine and you just say I need to use the copy machine, is that person in front of you going to move? Likely no, if they’re copying something already. If you say I need to, I need to use a copy machine because I need to make copies, they might be like oh yeah, okay, well, sure, but I need to make copies too. If you say I need the copy machine because I need to make copies and I’m late for a meeting, how much more likely are they to get out of the way? Right?

Sally Z

Right, and what you’ve just pulled out there really beautifully is that emotional recognition of our shared human experience. Oh, I’ve, as the person in line in front of you, I’m like oh, I know that feeling about being late, even without saying have you ever? Have you ever felt late before? You don’t have to say that. It exists right there in the story. We recognize, and stories ignite certain parts of our brain in such powerful ways, and one of them is a recognition of relatable experiences, so your brain is literally going oh, I’ve been there. Oh, I’ve been there. I know how that feels. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, because I’m not late and I know you are Exactly Right. It’s a really incredible empathy moment.

Amy Vaughan

Yes, just because that’s so great, it is so good, right, and I’ve started already implementing it and thinking about it, because I think sometimes we’re just so quick to get to the transaction aspect of things in the persuasion right, we just want the conversion, we want the click, we want the meeting, whatever it is, but we’re not thinking about why we’re asking them to do this and what’s going to motivate them. So, adding the because which is essentially the story, I thought was a psychic right, strong, powerful thought. So yeah, I wanted to share that because it just it seems to fit with what we’re talking about here. All right, so whenever we have a very sort of confident, well-spoken guest, I hate to bring up the topic because I know it peeps some people, but the term imposter syndrome, I guess it’s like it’s not a thing, guys, it’s not in WebMD, you’re not going to die from it. However, we tend to feel this feeling that maybe imposter syndrome. So I’m curious for you personally, sally how have you overcome the challenges of imposter syndrome or anything of the like in your journey as a speaker and a coach? Because I really want to help women who don’t feel so confident really understand. It’s an inside job, it’s not a syndrome or illness. Oh my gosh.

Sally Z

And how do we overcome it. I love the way that you just put that. It’s just a reminder that it is all in our heads. I like to say and I don’t mean that in any demeaning way, because I struggle with it too, and that is like first thing that I have to make crystal clear, because it’s easy to sort of look at somebody who, like me, who speaks professionally, who like this is my fifth podcast recording this week Like I do this a lot, I enjoy this and I love it, and my heart rate gets going. I think, okay, sally, prepare, think about this, get ready. I also am like, oh my gosh, it’s Amy Vaughn and it’s like this group, together Digital. They are, this is a big group and she’s live streaming. And so it’s just a myth to believe that if you are afraid, if you wonder if you have what it takes, if you have those imposter feelings that come up, it doesn’t mean anything about what you’re capable of or whether or not you belong in those spotlight moments, those power positions. I like to think of them that way. It has nothing to do with each other, they are unrelated. And so there have been plenty of times in my week not just my life, not just my career. My week where I have to work on my mindset and I like to think of speaking as 80% mindset, oh yeah, it’s not. Yeah, because you might be super skilled, but if you’re like can I? Or like I don’t know, I don’t feel great today. Whatever’s going on in our heads is so translated and felt and experienced by whoever it is you’re talking to. Totally so, and ultimately, ultimately, it’s about doing it anyway. I call it show up anyway Like hashtag. Show up anyway. I love it. Our job is to show up anyway and not let the baloney stories that we are telling ourselves keep us from doing something even if we haven’t ever done it before, Because our ability to grow and become better depends on our ability to do and try. Speaking is iterative. It is learn by doing, learn by doing, and so we have to do. We have to do to build the self trust to know and look back and say I did it. I can do it, I survived.

Amy Vaughan

I’m alive.

Sally Z

Like maybe it wasn’t perfect, but if perfect isn’t your goal, then and I love for perfect to not be anybody yes.

Amy Vaughan

Yes, I am 100% down with that. I think letting go of perfectionism and you know we’ll talk here a bit about authenticity as well and finding your own voice, I think all of that helps you become more, in a healthy way, self assured and less self, like you know, deprecating or, you know, because we do, we do such a, we do a better job than anybody else in standing in our own way, and I love to remind myself, but oftentimes my kids or maybe more times myself everything is scary. Anything new is scary the first time, in fact, gosh. I also love to quote one of our panelists from a self advocacy panel that we did last fall at our national conference Tareeda Preston. Look her up, follow her on LinkedIn and Instagram. She’s brilliant, you know, and we were talking a bit about imposter syndrome and she said you know, is it? Is it something that’s scary or is it just a new? And I just love that because it is all about mindset. It’s sort of the stories that you are telling yourself internally that are likely holding you back. So I love those as tips and tools for helping people kind of get beyond that. You speak a lot and coach folks quite a bit through finding their voice in particular, which I know can be a struggle because, again, not to make us all sound crazy, but we do we have a lot of voices in our head because we’ve got our upbringing, society, people, friends around us. What advice would you give to those who are listening? How would you start to give them some advice to help them step into sort of their own authentic voice and, ultimately, a spotlight?

Sally Z

Yeah well, it’s a process and we don’t fall into. I think one of the myths that people have around authenticity is that you just try less, like just don’t work so hard at it and it’ll arrive. I think it yeah right. Actually, I think it’s kind of the opposite. There’s a really natural process where you start by doing right, we’re gonna go do it. And you’re just gonna get through and you’re gonna, and you’re likely going to do it like someone else you’ve seen. You’re going to be like I admire that person or I like that style of that person, and you’re trying these things on for size, to figure out for yourself, like how did that feel for me? That’s often the question I ask as a coach is how did that feel for you? How did that feel for you? And ultimately, we wanna get to a place where it feels like freedom. It’s like, oh, it just felt not easy, and it’s not that you stop preparing and you’re just like, whatever, it’ll be fine. But you start to get to a place of such deep self-trust that you know that you can handle it in the moment and that feels like freedom. When you’re at that place, things you start to unleash a little bit more right. We’re dialing up our strong point of view. We are physically more present in our bodies. We’re not in this, like you know, that experience where it’s like an out of body experience yeah, you black out. That’s. Yeah, you black out. Or you’re having the conversation in your head about what’s coming out of your mouth. As it’s coming out of your mouth, like those are signs that we are not really present in what’s happening and when we can be in that place of self-trust, really present with who we’re talking to. It sort of channels a really different level of focus and freedom and fun. It starts to get fun. So the only way to get there is to go through the discomfort of trying other things on for size in public, yeah and to figure out what really works for you, because you need the adrenaline and you need the reactions and feedback from other people in order to get clear for yourself on, like, what works for you and what doesn’t. So I wish there was an easier answer than we figure it out publicly. You learn by doing it.

Amy Vaughan

I think it’s so so silent.

Sally Z

A revealing.

Amy Vaughan

It is, it is and, like you said, it’s like for those of you who are in marketing and advertising, it’s testing, it’s getting out there and testing your language and you get that kind of authentic in the moment reaction from people and that lets you know, if you’re like stating a pitch or an idea, that you see the light in their eyes. You’re like, oh, I said something there that was on point and you kind of catalog that and save it for later. And it is, it’s through practice. I do think, having been somebody who worked in a corporate environment or agency environment for many, many years and then switching to a business owner, that was a very scary endeavor in the sense that I was gonna have to be like selling my business and talking about myself more and doing things like this, and it was pretty terrifying. I was like it’s easier just to hang out here in the background, yeah, yeah. But that moment that I was able to get up on a stage and see the head nods and have people come up to me and repeat the things that I said back to that, back to me, I was like, oh, wow, that made a difference. That’s gonna stick with them and that’s creating impact, which in legacy, which is really important to me personally and obviously to our together digital business and mission. That’s how I can serve it. So I do think I agree there really is no better way than just kind of getting out there and trying and doing it for sure. The no shortcuts.

Sally Z

ladies, sorry, I know but you know what we feel it. So, like Amy, you going through the process of trying, like once you get to that place of real freedom and connectedness and presence, that there is so much strength that you have I call it we kind of earned your authenticity in that way. Not that anybody has to earn that level, but because you’ve worked for it, you feel that, rather than I think for a lot of people they’re sort of aiming for it and trying and it can come across as false because you’re like oh, this is what it’s supposed to look like and if there’s a lot of supposed to’s, that, especially in speaking I mean it can be a very elitist speaking is like if I’m going to be a big time speaker, I’ve got to look like this and do it like this and have this kind of blah, blah, blah, yeah yeah, it’s a lot of pressure.

Amy Vaughan

Like you said, perfectionism, stop chasing it, just start trying it. I love it. All right, let’s talk about a couple other challenges that you see women facing specifically women, because that’s the most of our listening audience when it comes to public speaking and how can they start to navigate some of these hurdles and become more effective communicators? Because, again, like, sometimes speaking up isn’t even just about being on the stage. It could be speaking up in a meeting when you’re not, like the most extroverted one in the room.

Sally Z

Yeah, well, because speaking is like the physical manifestation of standing up for your idea. You are literally embodying that thing. It’s not a small deal when you take yourself from let’s just use this metaphor right, you’re in the sidelines of the meeting and you’ve got this internal voice going well. Actually, I’ve got to I’ve thought about that, I haven’t thought about that to like put yourself into that power position, raise your hand and take up that space. It’s not a small thing, and when I’m working with women, I’m often talking to them about actually physically taking up space, taking up more space so that they can emotionally, metaphorically, all of the things like these two pieces are really connected. So I actually think there’s some physical things that we can do as women to bring more of ourselves into the space and allow ourselves that level of power and voice and presence. So speaking is leadership and action. It really is. So that’s one thing I would say. I also think that we’ve been talking about imposter syndrome. We’ve been talking about the really mindset challenges that hold so many of us back, and if that’s 80% of the deal, I would love for us to focus more on that as leaders and speakers. Rather than focus on your slide deck, focus on what exactly you’re gonna wear, although what you’re wearing might affect how you feel. Oh right, so I’m not saying ignore that piece, but what is it? Who do you need in your corner to help you step into those spaces with more self-trust and confidence and clarity in what you have to say, the role you play and how you can show up and serve people? So I think sometimes we think of speaking as a skills game and it’s really not. I mean a little bit, but ultimately, when people sense this person is, this woman is owning her power and her voice, we’re drawn in by that way. More than that was a beautifully articulated, beautiful structured. Nobody really cares about that as much as we think.

Amy Vaughan

And if it’s super perfect does it always feel relatable If it’s exact and perfect? I’m trying to remember what I was just listening to another podcast I wanna say it was Hidden Brain and I can’t remember the exact episode. Maybe Kaylee can do some fast Googling for us. If not, I’ll take a look through it and we’ll add it to the show notes. But it was really talking about even embracing in those public moments, those instances where things don’t go right. So there was an example of a guy who had rode his bike into a university where he was giving a big lecture and didn’t have a splash guard on his back wheel and the back of his coat was just filthy, muddy, like his pants and he couldn’t do anything about it. He’s like I don’t have time to go back and change, can’t go up there without pants, and so, instead of just ignoring it, he just got up on stage and owned that moment of hey, check me out, my ass is covered in mud. How funny is that? And the whole room lit up and the energy shifted and changed and this, what would have been a very stodgy, more formal environment, all of a sudden suddenly became much more warm, inviting, lighthearted. So, even when things don’t go exactly the way that you hoped, you know, like this podcast, every week we always have one little snack food. That happens, but you know what? That’s what makes us human, that’s what makes it a little more entertaining and engaging, and I hope that’s what helps other women who aspire to do things like this feel like, yeah, you can do it too, and you don’t have to be perfect about it at all times.

Sally Z

Well, one of the challenges, I think, is that, at least historically, when women were in the 80s coming into power and corporate, their goal was to hide their humanness right. They had to in order to be taken seriously. It was like don’t have pictures of your kids, don’t be a real human. You’ve got to show up dressed as a man you would like. And so we’re flipping those tables slowly in order to allow ourselves because this has been my mission for a really long time and it’s part of why stories are so important is for us to really connect with, influence and persuade each other. You have to be a real human, you have to bring your full humanness to the moment, and I think for women sometimes there’s an added level of fear around that. Like, if I show up and be a real, full human, will I be taken as seriously? Is there a hit to my credibility in some way? And I just want us to hold tightly to the belief that what’s most important is you being brave. It’s less about you being perfect, it’s more about your truthfulness than it is about how perfectly that message is articulated. And so when things go wrong, cause they will the mud on the back of your pants, or I mean, one of my all time favorite examples of this is the BBC through from 2017 or something pre pandemic like before, we were all working from home and doing these Zoom things. This North Korean expert gets on the BBC’s huge interview moment biggest interview of his life and his toddler comes marching in the background in her yellow sweater. I don’t know, do you remember this? It was like Wink viral took the internet by storm, right. And then his wife comes like zooming in the background, just like no, get her out of here. Exactly, and he’s just trying to be so, trying so hard to be professional and credible and like take me seriously. And the BBC guy’s like no, this is just the most endearing thing I’ve ever seen. Now I will tell you, I don’t know any other North Korean experts and I know that guy Like. that may not be why he wanted to get famous, but it gave us a peek into the beauty and recognition of our humanness. You know, like Amy, I know your kids are home and you’re over it. You’re over it. I love that you now are more than just a digital queen right Powerhouse prowess you are also a mom. Like that helps me connect with you and get to know you in a really human way. So I just want us to hold onto that as women and know that that is part of our power. It’s not something that we have to dial down. It is how we’re gonna connect with and influence people.

Amy Vaughan

I love it, and you’re gonna attract the kind of people you want to attract and detract the ones that you do as well, cause you know we don’t need to be for everybody. Oh, such a good reminder. Co-Hatch is a new kind of shared work, social and family space built on community. Members get access to workspace amenities like rock walls and sports simulators and more, to live a fully integrated life that balances work, family, well-being, community and giving back. Co-hatch has 31 locations open or under construction nationwide, throughout Ohio, indiana, florida, pennsylvania, north Carolina, georgia and Tennessee. Visit wwwcohatchcom for more information. I’m gonna jump ahead to a question, because we’re on this topic of sort of conundrums and things that folks commonly come up against when it comes to public speaking, and you know there’s plenty of research out there about how much people would rather die than speak. Apparently, 75% of the population has a fear of public speaking. So, as a speaking coach, how do you help individuals overcome this overall fear of public speaking and start to embrace their stories and telling them?

Sally Z

Yeah, yeah. Step one is I mentioned this earlier, but it’s really essential and that is just normalizing the fear, Like you’re not afraid, and if 70, whatever percent of the population feels that way, like that includes even people who speak on the regular, Absolutely.

Amy Vaughan

So, right.

Sally Z

So it doesn’t have to mean the meaning that we might be giving it. It might just be a thing because you’re about to do something that you care about. That’s hard, that’s new. If my speakers are never afraid, I’m like what challenge aren’t you taking on right now? Like what’s the next thing that you could be doing? That you aren’t because you’re playing it too safe. So fear, if we can just acknowledge that it’s part of the process, that sort of takes that away. Now, that being said, there’s some people who really struggle with the way adrenaline shows up in their body and that can keep them, in very real ways, from sharing ideas that are needed and powerful. And so, if that’s the case, if it’s like my heart pounds or my throat gets dry, I sweat a lot, my hands shake, et cetera, et cetera, we all have some adrenaline that’s moving through our body in these moments, because our brain is interpreting this scary moment, this vulnerable, real scary moment, as dangerous. It’s not dangerous, but it feels that way to the very oldest part of our brain. So to let them know that this is not a pack of lions, to let your brain know you’re OK we just have to take some baby steps to prove to yourself that you can survive it.

Amy Vaughan

That it’s going to be OK.

Sally Z

So I do something with my speakers sometimes who are really stuck in the preparation side of this, and it’s a mindset piece, but it’s also like really teaching our body that it’s OK. I call it the pre-talk ritual, a PTR, and we develop their own personal PTR. What’s your pre-talk ritual that will help you get in the right space physically, emotionally and spiritually? Where’s your heart at? How can you come to a space where you can feel as confident as possible and get through it? That is really the goal for some people is to get through it and then build on their success. Actually it’s great. Actually I did it. I got great feedback. I thought it was terrible. I got great feedback. Who are we going to listen to here? Who’s probably being harder on yourself, more critical?

Amy Vaughan

Hmm, that’s great, sally. I think it’s everybody yes.

Sally Z

I wish, I sometimes wish, oh, my gosh, I think that’s so great.

Amy Vaughan

I have heard some really good advice on this as well, and it’s similar to what you’ve stated, which is that those kind of what sometimes holds us back from speaking up is literally the sense that your throat is closed up. You start to sweat and your hands start to shake, and mindset is such an important aspect of overcoming these most stage fright moments and learning how to regulate your response. I’m going to refer to another really great podcast, because I love giving people more to listen to and learn. I love anything and all things Adam Grant. If you guys haven’t listened to his Work Life podcast, he also has a rethink and one that I listened to recently was talking about how we have the episode is you have more control over your emotions than you think, and it’s with Lisa Feldman Barrett. It’s a really interesting episode because it actually talks about that, how these are electrical pulses. There’s actually no such thing as a feeling it sucks to say that but there is no such thing as a feeling. It’s pheromones, it’s hormones, it’s electrical impulses within our body that are caused based on our fight or flight response. And, as you said, you have to remember, when you’re getting on stage, you’re not going to be eaten by lions, and so how can you reframe the moment in the moment, the feelings that you are having? And so one thing I have learned is that when I’m getting ready to get up on stage or do a talk, like you said, I don’t try to shove the feelings down, I don’t try to be overcome by them. It’s more of a mindful practice of acknowledge they’re here, like OK, I’m feeling my heart’s racing, my hands are shaking, and then I think to myself this is not fear, this is excitement, this is anticipation. And all of a sudden, that fear to excitement all of a sudden kind of gives me a different mindset of like I’m just really excited about this, I’m really excited to give this talk, I’m excited for people to hear what I have to say and respond. So very much different. But that’s a really great podcast to listen to. If you haven’t already, I highly recommend it. It’s a great one.

Sally Z

I love Adam Grant and everything that comes out of that little brain, and I would say too, because I think that switch. It sounds so simple, but if we recognize it’s the same physiological response. The only difference is the story you’re telling yourself about what’s happening. That’s the mindset game is, if it’s not, we might not believe ourselves at first and I’m like I’m excited. Yeah, I’m not excited, but I’m just going to. Yeah, I’m excited, ok, here we go. But I think, as somebody now, when I feel that, whew, it takes me seconds to shift from I’m scared to I’m excited, and so the more you do it, the faster you’ll be able to recognize. No, actually I’m going to change the story about what’s happening here, which allows me to open up and be present and walk into this moment in full trust of myself and that I can handle what will go wrong Absolutely, because something will not go perfectly. And I can handle that. I can handle that, I can do this. So give yourself the time, even if you don’t believe it at first. Yet the more you do it, the more you will. Absolutely, and the quicker you’ll be able to make that switch.

Amy Vaughan

I agree. One more piece of mindset advice that I thought was helpful for me getting up on stage and speaking, I don’t know if it was less of feeling nervous or scared or being in front of people, it was just that I don’t want to be the center of attention. I really don’t.

Sally Z

And maybe it doesn’t seem that way because I have a podcast and I run a business.

Amy Vaughan

Honestly, it’s a part of running a business, but I struggled with that. I struggled with that personally and something that really spoke to me. I went out. Was it last year or the year before that Gosh, I don’t know now. Thanks, COVID, it’s made all of the last three years out of nowhere.

Sally Z

I’m so happy now totally.

Amy Vaughan

But I had the privilege of being able to go out too. You probably have heard of them heroic public speaking with Michael and Amy Port, and one of the things Michael said the very first day was just like a big light switch, light bulb moment for me, which was that it is less about you when you’re on stage and speaking. It is not about you actually, it is about the experience you’re trying to create for others, and I was like, oh, that is such a relief and it takes so much pressure off of me, I feel, because really that’s my goal. It’s not about me, it’s about those that I’m speaking to and that I’m trying to help and support, encourage and empower. So I don’t know if that helps any of you, but I definitely helped to kind of resolve some of that kind of hesitancy and fear that I felt getting up on stage.

Sally Z

That’s beautiful. And can I add to that for a second Please? Because OK, for those of you who can see this I know not everybody is listening, but OK, on the cover of my book. I intentionally built it for that exact reason, amy, because I really believe that this is the speaker. Yeah, right, and then these are all of the people in the audience. I love it and the connections that happen. Uh-huh, that originate from you, but it’s really about what is happening here, what’s happening in the audience’s brain as they are hearing you speak, your ideas, your stories. It’s an act of co-creation, it is it really is.

Amy Vaughan

Oh, I love that that’s such a cool concept.

Sally Z

Different for each person, and it’s such a beautiful, magical, kind of metaphysical, like what really happens with the energy and the experience in the room, and so it’s a gift, if you think of it this way, to be able to be there and say I’m going to say some things and then it’s going to go out there, and then you’re going to do something with it. I don’t know what, I don’t know what, but your brain’s going to take it in. You’re going to build stories in your head, you’re going to build images in your head, based on what I’m saying, that are completely your own, based on the stories and experiences that you are bringing with you into that moment. And it’s so cool, it is. It’s so cool, it’s so cool. And the only way it happens is if you, amy, have the courage to get over yourself whatever’s holding you back, and show up and serve people in that way.

Amy Vaughan

Absolutely, I so agree.

Sally Z

I’m glad you’re doing it. I’m so glad.

Amy Vaughan

It’s such an empowering thing. Like I said, it’s a source of energy, opportunity, connection, co-creation I love how you said co-creation. As a highly collaborative person, I think that that is so true. It’s so much of what we’re trying to do and build for community, because digital isn’t ever going to be about any one person. It’s about the collective, the power and the strength that we bring to one another, the experiences that we share, the knowledge that we share. That, to me, is such an awesome thing. I love that the community has got a number of women who are listening today members and non-members, of course that are about at that point where they’re going to start getting up and speaking their truths and telling their stories and getting on the stage and co-creating alongside of us to make some change in the world. That’s so exciting. I’ve got a couple more questions left, but I want to open it up to our live listening audience. Ladies, if you have questions specifically for Sally, put them into the chat. Don’t be shy. We are here to answer them. No judgment, all right, I love questions. I love questions, me too. Me too. I’ll ask you a couple more and we’ll keep an eye on the chat and see if anybody comes through with anything. Let’s see. We have some good questions in here, but I want to make sure we hit on the things we haven’t maybe hit on yet. We’ve already touched on authenticity and how it’s an effective part of public speaking. We talked about how we could cultivate that through practice. I’m going to skip that one and let’s go down to if there’s a particular transformative moment when a story had a profound impact on one of your speakers. What was that? What was that like? I’m curious to hear your work in action, basically.

Sally Z

Yeah, one of my favorite things to do, I host retreats for speakers and aspiring speakers at my parents’ beautiful lake home in Wisconsin. We take a small group of speakers up there and we do photos and videos and just get you set up to go and share your message more broadly with the world and we workshop your talks. One of my speakers, who has identified herself as a trainer for a long time, hadn’t yet really. I mean, she was there because she was like I am a speaker and I want to be a speaker, but really her comfort was in this identity as trainer. I don’t know if that resonates, especially when you are a technical expert I digital people and you’re like, okay, there’s a lot of safety in living in the land of expert, which is very knowledge-based. Well, we were in this moment where I was pushing her. She was up there, she delivered part of her talk and I came up to her and she just I could tell as she was trying to share more of her story and step into a slightly braver, bolder, more authentic story-based message. You could see the discomfort in her body because you can’t hide it. You just cannot hide these kinds of realities. Whatever you’re feeling, we’re going to see it. So I walked up to her and I just come, put my hands on her shoulder and she said you belong on stage, you belong in this moment. It was a teary moment for her to be told that and have somebody affirm that for her. To me, all of those pieces come together in that moment that we hide in the title of trainer, sometimes we hide in the title of expert. Well, what would that really look like if you brought your full self into this moment, your whole body, your stories, your vulnerabilities, your imperfections, and let us really see you. What happens then? What power can exist in that moment right there. I think it’d be one thing for me to just tell her that, but to witness that, to have that moment happen, I think, most importantly in front of other supportive peers of women who say, yes, we see you, we love you, you can do this. Those moments can be so transformative for people because it’s really hard to see yourself clearly. It’s just very, very difficult to see yourself clearly. So sometimes we just need the vision and the mirroring of other people to do that, to become this thing that we want. But it’s hard to be like can I really do this? Can I be this thing that I want to be? Yes, yes.

Amy Vaughan

I love that. I think go ahead sorry.

Sally Z

It was just a big moment for her and it was such an honor to be a part of that moment.

Amy Vaughan

Yeah, Well, and I think too, we just we need more experts. I mean, I think we all have our fair share of people who get up and be asked things and make up stuff. You ask them questions or you start to dig into things or you start working with them and you’re like, wait, you actually know nothing, but you’re just really good at spinning things up and making it sound like you’re an expert. You know, I want more real experts up on stage who are unafraid to sort of share their authentic selves, who have been given the safe place and the grace to sort of practice and evolve into that, and I do really feel like our community is very much that as well for women. But once that’s the case, it’s like, yeah, now you’ve got a talented, smart expert on stage who is just captivating. Because they are willing to engage authentically. They don’t have to walk up and feel an act like a robot, because that’s absolutely not what they are.

Sally Z

Yeah, Right, right. It’s the more people who really know what they’re doing up there. Truly, yeah, I mean, just because you know how to tell a captivating story like that’s just part of your job, that’s part of your job you have to come from a foundation of yes, you know what you’re talking about, you are truly an expert, sort of like. What we need are experts plus, yes, and not just technical knowledgeable people, but people who can embody the reality of the impact of all of that.

Amy Vaughan

Yeah, gosh, I’m thinking of somebody right now, good friend of mine, who I actually haven’t even met her in person yet we will soon and I just she is so, so smart, wicked smart, and wants to do more speaking. So I’m excited I might introduce her to you. Maybe I’ll get her a copy of your book.

Sally Z

Okay, because yeah, oh, that would be amazing.

Amy Vaughan

She is really such a talented individual and she just struggles because she’s in the shadow of a much bigger personality. For her, that’s kind of.

Sally Z

Well, I believe very strongly that when I am putting together my conference and I’m pulling together a stage of people, I want all kinds of voices, I want all kinds of bodies, I want all kinds of styles. Like it can, we cannot all just be glitter, bomb extroverts up there, like nothing against that. That’s great and it’s powerful and beautiful. But that’s going to connect with some people, it’s not going to connect with everybody, and so we need her voice exactly as it is. There’s a place for her.

Amy Vaughan

I agree, I agree, I will introduce you all and she’s going to be all red face. Okay, talk about her in the background. I already, like, insisted she sign up and be a guest in the future too.

Sally Z

So she’s going to get that practice.

Amy Vaughan

She’s going to get that practice. I’m like you know what you’re talking about. It’s just a matter of you getting into the habit of getting the opportunity to really speak in places.

Sally Z

Well, podcasts are an amazing way to start and get that going right and start to share your point of view externally and build some authority for yourself. I agree.

Amy Vaughan

I agree. All right, sally, this hour has flown by. We’ve got just a few minutes left. I don’t see any questions from our live listening audience, but, ladies, be sure to reach out to Sally. Kaylee was so generous to put her contact information, website book information all in the chat, so you can be sure to check her out and connect with her as well. But outside of that, I will go ahead and just ask one more question, then. How do you guide speakers to creating a story that not only resonates with the audience but also moves them, because that’s a big part of what you’re talking about with speaking story. What are some of those levers that you’re helping them pull?

Sally Z

Yeah, well, in the book I share this framework with you, so you can read the book and dig in more deeply on it if you want. But let me just tell you the formula, and this formula is going to ignite all of the beautiful brain activity that happens when we tell stories. It’s going to help you persuade more effectively. But it’s really important the order in which these things happen. So it’s the MMM. This is the simple story framework, and the first M is the moment and it’s the story. I call it a moment because great stories, persuasive stories, exist in one moment in time. It is not an overall summary of, generally, things that happened one summer. It is one moment in time. So we start with what that moment is, then what we do. The second M is about the meaning that you are going to draw out of that story for your audience. You’ve got to do some thinking ahead here and it is very dependent on who you’re talking to, where you are, what they need and how you, in particular, can help them. But one little thinking ahead, pause for yourself, that’s going to help prepare you for this, to pull out that meaning for them and serve it up to them, because, honestly, that is our job as speakers and leaders. The storytelling is simply the tool. It’s like the messenger that brings in the message for you. It’s not really about the storytelling, it’s about what it has to do with them. It’s kind of that because moment, as we were talking about Amy, it’s like who cares? They’re sitting there going. What does this have to do with me? So what, who cares? So that meaning part answers that question for them what does this have to do with them and what is the significance you get to shape perspective and meaning in that moment for them. So, moment meaning, and then the last part of the framework, which is really important, move piece, and essentially what we’re answering for them is what’s next? What do we want them to do from here? Moment meaning and move and, depending on the context, that could be as simple as asking a question or inviting them to do something or an actual call to action. Potentially, context really matters, but those three pieces together are a persuasive framework that will help you lean into the beautiful brain science around storytelling and lead your audience directly into where you want them to go in a way that’s authentic, ethical, clear and courageous.

Amy Vaughan

I love it Fantastic. Thank you so much, sally. This has been such a fun conversation. I really enjoy it. Again, I really hope those of you who are listening feel encouraged and empowered. Check out Sally’s book, find those spaces in which you can start to do this work of sharing your stories, discovering yourself authentically and then sharing that power with others. There’s just so much potential and opportunity with every set of ears that are listening. Today you also have that map. Let’s start using it, finding our stories and speaking them and changing the world with them. I think there’s just so many women who have so much to contribute. Each and every one of you that’s listening today is that. So, sally, thanks for all the work that you’re doing. It’s amazing. I can’t wait to check out the book. Everyone, thank you so much for being with us today. We hope to see you next week. Until then, everyone, keep asking, keep giving and keep growing. We’ll see you next week. Bye.

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